Author Topic: RED setup  (Read 12476 times)

Offline 773077

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RED setup
« on: April 18, 2014, 10:43:36 PM »
Looking for some setup/adjustment guidance for a NA 235” RED. I have some familiarity with the car at a lower HP. New freshened engine (almost together), 380 ci middeck should make about 1025-1050 hp, 600 lbft of torque, peak torque around 8200, trans is a Proflite with 2.09/1.40 gear (thinking maybe a higher 1st gear in the 1.90+ range). Haven’t ordered a converter yet. Would like to keep engine rpms below 10,300 (initially 10,000) out the backdoor. Have  4.71, 4.88, 5.0 and 5.29 rear gears. Have a selection of tires 10.5” -14.5” wide with 101”-103.5” rollout, wheels 10, 11 & 14” wide. Have a long wheely bar, 72 inches (will run initially), but don’t want to use it. Need to determine weight bias, car weight will be 1530 lbs. would appreciate any guidance you might have regarding setup, launch technique and adjustment after run. Have questions about tire size, weight bias, 1st gear, tire pressure, balancing tire width for launch with traction down track. Currently thinking 13.5 to 14.5 tire width with rollout of 101-103.5” and a stiff wall. Does anyone have any information as far as softness of compound comparison between GY D6, Hoosier D06, D07 and MT M5, M8, X8, L8? Any rules of thumb regarding setup and adjustment would be appreciated. Thanks in advance. Another old new guy.

Offline masracingtd1167

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Re: RED setup
« Reply #1 on: April 19, 2014, 06:05:00 AM »
Sounds like you bought someones old comp eliminator car . Do you plan on running comp or are you going to bracket race it .you have a lot of horsepower there! I run a lot of old comp eliminator parts on my motor 18 degree heads and a sheet metal manifold and it makes good power . I try to keep the rpm a little lower on mine around 9400 but I still have to keep an eye on the valvetrain springs . pushrods , rockers ect. Post some pictures of your car . Best of luck with it !

dreracecar

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Re: RED setup
« Reply #2 on: April 19, 2014, 08:35:10 AM »
What class do you plan to run? 1/8 or 1/4? what type of rearend Ford or Chry?? Is it blown or carb?? gas or alc?? is the car tagged for AdvET??, are you licensed for AdvET???

Offline 773077

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Re: RED setup
« Reply #3 on: April 20, 2014, 03:16:01 AM »
Car is a little dated like me . Originally built by Al Swindahl, backhalfed and narrorrowed by Harry Clack, Front halfed by Brad Hadman and was raced as a C/ed car. Engine originally was a 341 ci  C/A motor with Little Chief  heads, which made good power, it has been stroked to 380 ci to make the weight for B/da class. Have to wait until its off the dyno to make some decisions. I have searched the net looking for articles which might dicuss procedures for setting up the car opposed to running it down the track a dozen times trying to find the sweet spot without shaking the drivers brains out and using up parts, however, I haven't found any yet. I think the car is a bit short for the class and power at 235" but we'll have to see. Probabably start with pieces that  we currently have 5.0 rear gear, 2.09 low with a 1.40 second and 32 or 33 inch by 14-14.5 inch wide tire, put some air in the tires and take some timing out and see what happens. I rember crewing on an A/D 20+ years ago at Bakersfield, we had the about the same power, tightened up the clutch, put a little air in the tires and black tracked the whole 1/4 mile. I don't know if I can get enough weight on the frontend to keep it down on launch and still have enough tire after 60' to get it down the track. Would like to run mid 6.80's at 195+ if there is enough power. Another subject. Has anyone attempted to run radials on a FED or RED car. If so, would like to hear from you.     

Offline masracingtd1167

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Re: RED setup
« Reply #4 on: April 20, 2014, 06:15:47 AM »
Stay away from the radials they will not work very well on a dragster . I would think that the 14 inch tire would be a good place to start .You said that you were going to dyno the motor .After you dyno send a copy of it to whoever you are going to use for a convertor and they should be able to get you close.Leave the wheelie bar on it !

Offline 773077

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Re: RED setup
« Reply #5 on: April 20, 2014, 12:06:59 PM »
I tend to agree with you regarding the wheely bar. I may have to use it as a crutch to get the car to leave properly, but personally don't care for them. I think you can get most slicks, within reason, down the track by manipulating launch rpm and timing, the question is: is that the ideal combination for the quickest ET. I also tend to agree with you regarding radials on a dragster. You'll not find the answer in 1 or2 laps down the track, it may take hundreds. My thought is how do you make them work? We use the bias belt slicks and spin them just enough to get the car moving and the correct wheel speed for that combination. Radials don't like spining and have a poor recovery. You would like the tire on the edge of breaking loose all the way down the track. Take a C/ED short deck sbc that is 307 ci and makes 800 hp vs this combination. The power to weight ratio for the C/ED would be .521 while B/DA  combination would be .668 both at the same weight. Both classes of cars have run the same tire, 12x33x15. What did they have to detune to get that tire to work on the B/DA car. I have some thoughts about radials but would like to talk with someone who has tried them to see what their experience was. Any thoughts on tire pressures and adjustments. How much tire pressure have you run. We used to have a combination that would get the car down any track: 7 lbs of air pressure, 5,000 rpm launch, take 12 degrees of timing out for 1.2 seconds. Thanks for the response.

Offline masracingtd1167

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Re: RED setup
« Reply #6 on: April 21, 2014, 12:40:40 PM »
We have run them on a comp car but it is a bodied car with a 4 link . We have gone fast on them but only on a track with national event conditions . A dragster FED or RED needs wheel speed to go quick . We also crashed the car with the radials and to this day we really don't know what caused it . After the car was repaired we only went to one race but we put the bias tires on it and set the record on the first pass.That 12x33 tire is very fast and will work for you but the 14 might make the car a little more stable .With a thousand hp you should easily run in the six's ! It shure will be an eye opener ! 

Offline 773077

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Re: RED setup
« Reply #7 on: April 22, 2014, 05:46:19 AM »
I tend to agree with all that you have said. The radial was developed for cars with suspension and a RED has virtually none except chassis length and tires. The whole issue is getting it off the line, as the tires are built to dead hook and if you break them loose they may not recover. I think it still has to do with tire management in the first 5’ or that first .5 seconds from transbrake release. Lets say it takes .15-.25 seconds from brake release until it hits tire. At that point the bias slick is wrapped up and starts to spin about 1-2 turns before it catches and leaves on the edge of breaking loose. The radial on the other hand dead hooks and spins and catches itself or driver pedals it, in any case, lets say it recovers but to much time is lost to post an acceptable time.  My thought is that you would want to manage that point in time at launch as it starts to spin that 1 1/2-2 turns to allow the tire to recover, get up on the tire and hopefully have enough wheel speed to continue the launch without breaking the tire loose (kind of like a super comp launch but not quite, a pfft+). If this was the case, I think you would want the softest compound, widest tread and the lightest radial you could find. I would also think about swapping out the legal ignition and plugging in one with traction control (test only) to see what the rpm, trans output shaft rpm and wheel speed needs to be to launch successfully. Having said all this it could very well indicate that you need a different converter or tire and compound and rear gear to make it work on a RED. Sounds tedious, but interesting. Thanks for the info. Anyone else have some insite and want to share?   

Offline ricardo1967

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Re: RED setup
« Reply #8 on: April 22, 2014, 09:30:46 AM »
Doesn't the track surface treatment (VHT and such) play a big role here?

Offline 773077

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Re: RED setup
« Reply #9 on: April 22, 2014, 10:08:55 AM »
Yes, of course, as well as the weather, engine power aviabable, tire pressure etc.. If the starting line is junk the bias tire probably won't do well either and you'll have to detune. A good tool to use is your experience. Walk the track along with crew chief before competition starts, Grade the track and starting line on a scale of 1-5. Crew Chief checks starting line again before burnout and sets final air pressure. After burn out crew chief grades the the starting as he guides the car back to starting line and sets launch rpm if its different than you predicted. If you are at a national event try to catch one of the top fuel guys when they are evaluating the starting line. I think with your experience you could add a bunch more. Be consistant in your preparation and remember you are racing the track not the guy in the other lane. 

Offline masracingtd1167

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Re: RED setup
« Reply #10 on: April 22, 2014, 02:11:18 PM »
Doesn't the track surface treatment (VHT and such) play a big role here?
      Ricardo it makes a huge difference . A car like he is talking about should be around 1 flat or quicker in the 60 ft. If the track is not good you ar not going anywhere ! 

Offline ricardo1967

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Re: RED setup
« Reply #11 on: April 22, 2014, 05:33:38 PM »
Thanks Bill and 773077.

I hate VHT...  >:(  Still have bad memories from my last test pass (my avatar). And that was on skinny (10.5" M/T M5), 10 years old slicks @ 10psi! Hate VHT... >:(
« Last Edit: April 23, 2014, 08:34:41 AM by ricardo1967 »

Offline 773077

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Re: RED setup
« Reply #12 on: April 23, 2014, 05:44:39 AM »
Ricardo, 10.5's 10 years young at 10 lbs. thats traction alright. having done that, when you go back to the track and the conditions are the same what are you going to do? Hey guy's help Ricardo out, landings from this altitude are not fun. My avaitar. Setup was 6.5 lbs of air, tires were Hoosier 12x33x15's on 12"wheels, launch rpm was 7500rpm. This was a test session with a new driver with a under power mule motor (307 ci, 650  hp), on a good track, good weather. In our case, one change at a time. We put 20 lbs of weight in the nose. Right or wrong ? Not enough power to turn the  tire? Next pass still pulled the front a bit but went down the track at 177 mph 7.76. 60' was junk. What else should we have done, anyone? you make the call? higher/lower rpm launch, more/less air pressure, more weight in the nose. car weight was 1565 lbs, weight, bias was 75.1/24.9%. Moving 20 lbs to the nose changed the bias to 74.8/25.2%. Anyone run the 10.5's or the 12x33 on a 14-16 wide wheel? what air pressure.

60' comment: definitely it should run sub 1.0's, the question is how to do it. the fast guys in the class are running 500 ci pro stock motors or 480 ci power in B/DA with 60' in the 1.02 range. There is a C/D that went .96 and a C/ED that runs consistent .99's in 60'. with the exception of the B/DA cars these cars are probbly within 40lbs and 100 hp of one another and they have done it on the 12x33x15 tire. One question is where is the transition between large and small ci power that allows you to give up .02-.04 on 60' using a bigger tire and pick it all up down track. comments anyone?

Offline ricardo1967

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Re: RED setup
« Reply #13 on: April 23, 2014, 09:50:38 AM »
...Hey guy's help Ricardo out, landings from this altitude are not fun...

Thanks 773077!

This forum has been very educational for me from day one. I am very thankful for that. I'm not quite ready to think on my next test pass yet, due to other priorities in life right now. But I sure hope to hit the track (Bean Blossom, IN) a couple times this season.

As for what I plan to change, installing the wheelie bars is one (it was in the trailer that day), as well replacing a cracked front wheel hub. I may add more weight on the front, but not too much more. When that time comes, I'll sure review my plans with this resourceful forum. Your experience below is a good guidance for me, thanks again.

Offline masracingtd1167

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Re: RED setup
« Reply #14 on: April 23, 2014, 11:51:07 AM »
Ricardo A wheelie bar is a must have for your car ! The last thing you want to do is damage your car or much worse hurt yourself . That 10.5 tire is a m5 compound wich is way too soft for your car . A car like yours and mine also are just so light in the front it makes it more difficult to get it from a to b . My motor is only 36 inches out and if I built another car it would be 50 inches out .When a car goes straight up like that it is because the car dead hooked .A nice long flexible wheelie bar will help a lot . Bill