Author Topic: Engine parts coatings  (Read 338 times)

Offline buickfed

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Engine parts coatings
« on: December 04, 2017, 04:53:30 PM »
been reading up on some of the material finishes for cranks, cam, bearings, etc and wondering if anybody has used them or know of other experiences. there is rem, microblue, moly and who knows what else is out there.

I have to find something for the dist/cam gear combo. a stock buick 350 will go 300k and not have any dist/cam gear wear. start adding higher oil pressure, which we need, bigger cams and more rpm, we develop a lot of dist/cam gear wear. used to replace mine every year. going to amsoil helped to make it last longer, but still have wear.

Offline JrFuel Hayden

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Re: Engine parts coatings
« Reply #1 on: December 05, 2017, 01:27:08 AM »
I don't race a Buick, but my iron SBC we had trouble with the mag gear wearing also, in my raised cam Dart block. What we found was because of the raised cam the mag was not lined up to the cam right.
Once we installed a wedge under the mag so the gear was lined up right , my mag gear wearing went away. I have not replaced the gear in 5 years since the wedge.
I wonder why you have to run higher oil pressure ? When I 1'st starting crewing on our JrFueler I bought a RacePak mostly because my 10 years of driving dragsters was only with clutches, so I figuered I needed more info about this converter stuff. The 1'st thing we learned was we had too much oil pressure , like 100 lbs, and the bearings looked OK, kinda cloudy, but not worn out. When we lowered the presuure down to 60-65 lbs in my 10k rpm engine , the bearings looked real good, enough so even after running 80+ runs on the alum rods  [ time to replace them] the rod bearings look so good I just put them in the new rods, not because of the cost but because they are good and broke-in.
The only trick thing I've done on one of cranks is micro-polishing, cost $500, and it looked like it was chromed, untill I had to have the crank ground and the chrome look went away after it was heat treaded.
I've tried some coatings on my pistons, but no advantage, I know the blown Nitro guys do coat their pistons, different coatings on the top then the skirts.
I hope this info helps.
Jon
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Offline buickfed

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Re: Engine parts coatings
« Reply #2 on: December 05, 2017, 11:50:05 AM »
buicks have a notorious bad oiling system which leads to bearing failure plus. the p/up tube is the back and the pump is on the timing cover. to get oil to 7 & 8 rod bearings(1.88)/mains, oil travel is about 5'. if you have ever seen any of the buick engines(not nailheads), we have a t/c that isn't very thick and I think does flex enough to sometime make matters worse. a lot of head scratching goes into building and maintaining a buick engine. you don't know it, but you chevy guys have it easy. tons of a/market better parts.

3k rpm is not a problem for a stock engine. once we start upping the h/p, we up the oil pressure to assure the thing doesn't blow up. there are plenty of broken v6's and 455's in the scrap yard. the 350 tends to do better because of where the c/shaft sits in the block. new chevy motors c/shafts are built like the buick 350.
also we(my son) turn between 65-7500 rpm with a blower on it. xxxx kid.

Offline JrFuel Hayden

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Re: Engine parts coatings
« Reply #3 on: December 05, 2017, 05:42:44 PM »
Have you thought about an external oil pump, like Daily or Patterson ? The pumps can be a problem with chassis clearance. Of course a dry sump system would be the best.

Jon
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Offline Frontenginedragsters

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Re: Engine parts coatings
« Reply #4 on: December 05, 2017, 07:16:51 PM »
Have you thought about an external oil pump, like Daily or Patterson ? The pumps can be a problem with chassis clearance. Of course a dry sump system would be the best.

Jon

Jon is right on.
We built a Buick bracket engine many years ago and the owner was aware of the oil pump problems.
We used a Peterson external oil pump and never looked back.
I think the up front cost more than makes up for problems later using a stock type oil system.

Matt Shaff
Driving a Front Engine Dragster builds character and keeps you awake for a 1/4 mile at a time.
http://www.pro-formancespecialties.com/

Offline JrFuel Hayden

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Re: Engine parts coatings
« Reply #5 on: December 05, 2017, 10:20:29 PM »
Thanks Matt for my spelling of Peterson. They make dry sump pumps mostly but you may just need a single stage pump.

Jon
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Offline hemidakota

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Re: Engine parts coatings
« Reply #6 on: December 06, 2017, 12:24:04 PM »
Jon you should check out the line 2 line coatings ICON is using on piston skirts. I think it might be something worth while on the Jr Fuel engines to help with ring seal... I'm no pro but is good stuff
If it jams force it, if it breaks it needed replaced anyways

Offline buickfed

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Re: Engine parts coatings
« Reply #7 on: December 11, 2017, 02:55:40 PM »
checked out both companies. unless they make it the size of a banana, can't use them. the timing cover has the oil pump on one side and the fuel pump on the other side and I run an alternator. the only way would be direct drive off the c/shaft and with more mods because I run a blower and a radiator.  problems outside the box is always fun. lol

Offline JrFuel Hayden

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  • Your Best Time: 6.02, 236 mph, 1/4 in 1973 Div 3 TF Champ
  • Your Engine: SBC, Alky, 403 ci, Best 6.99 @ 190 & 409 Hemi
  • Your Track: Bakersfield
  • Your Vehicle: 225" FED NHRA Heritage Jr Fuel
Re: Engine parts coatings
« Reply #8 on: December 11, 2017, 09:57:01 PM »
So you are burning gasoline, and running a battery distributer. You could get rid of your cooling system if you switched to alky, and get rid of your charging system if you switched to a mag.
Allot less parts, and weight.
Just my 2 cents

Jon
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Offline buickfed

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Re: Engine parts coatings
« Reply #9 on: December 12, 2017, 11:03:10 AM »
all we bring to the track is a set of plugs and gas. no playing b4 and after with alky, don't need a battery charger or generator. other than that the dragster is self sufficient. and the driver wants a cup holder installed. lol

Offline JrFuel Hayden

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  • Your Best Time: 6.02, 236 mph, 1/4 in 1973 Div 3 TF Champ
  • Your Engine: SBC, Alky, 403 ci, Best 6.99 @ 190 & 409 Hemi
  • Your Track: Bakersfield
  • Your Vehicle: 225" FED NHRA Heritage Jr Fuel
Re: Engine parts coatings
« Reply #10 on: December 12, 2017, 11:10:26 AM »
A cup holder, is that for Coke, coffee, or beer ?
I hope my sugestions are not out of line, our team is always looking to run quicker and faster, and you look like you want simpler bracket racing.
Have Fun

Jon
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Online Roger

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Re: Engine parts coatings
« Reply #11 on: December 12, 2017, 04:09:42 PM »
Are you using a bronze gear on the distributor now? Might look at the material compatibility of your cam gear and the distributor gear. A mismatch of materials could lead to excessive wear. Or look at this oiling solution; simple, inexpensive, and appears easy to do. About a third of the way down the page, they are using a billet cam with a stock 350 cam gear.

https://www.turbobuick.com/threads/distributor-gear.182964/

Online Roger

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Re: Engine parts coatings
« Reply #12 on: December 13, 2017, 04:37:45 PM »
Looks like the server is down on the site. Here's the pictures. A section of 1/8" copper tubing was run from a pressurized oil galley through the front cover and pointed at the gears. The poster said it cured his wear problems and that the 0.040"-0.050" hole in the end of the tubing didn't reduce his oil pressure.

Offline buickfed

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Re: Engine parts coatings
« Reply #13 on: December 13, 2017, 05:02:57 PM »
suggestions are not out line. my background is/was(retired now) a r&d/experimental machinist at pratt & whitney jet engines. I can't afford the jet engine material nor have machines to work the material. if I did, it would be one heck of an engine. so any I do is like a never ending science project with a buick 350. a lot of parts on the engine are/were not designed for a buick 350. it's become more of a Frankenstein as most people call it.
microblue or rem is metal finishing, the idea is similar to things done to jet engine parts. a lot of ideas in other avenues have been used in our racing world with success. I figured I would asked if anybody has any knowledge of it. if not, I will be playing guinea pig with it. hopefully it works.
the bronze gear symptom is an issue for the buick engines. stock engines will 300k and not show any wear on the two gears. as soon as we start adding h/p which we have to add oil pressure do we have a gear wear issue. we also have an issue with cam walking. the v6 can be helped with a plate, but the other engines cannot. the idea of going to a dry sump is tough for me. the 1968 chassis rails and the buick engine offer very little room for anything. I would have it direct drive off the c/shaft which would conflict with the stuff already there. but because this is how we run the dragster, we sometimes end up with some pain in the butt problem. but we and the engine have survived w/o being apart for the last 5yrs.
we chug along at 9.2's at 145 using a 4-71 with a 650 holley. looking to go to a roller cam for next year and see if it will make it to 8.5.
that's my story and I'm sticking to it.

Offline buickfed

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Re: Engine parts coatings
« Reply #14 on: December 13, 2017, 05:05:00 PM »
roger, there is a thread going on the v8buick site in the 350 section about gear wear and some ways for a possible solution. but they are not a 100% cure.