FrontEngineDragsters.Org Forum
Drag Racing Discussions => Front Engine Dragsters => Topic started by: jenrick on June 13, 2015, 05:15:31 PM
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Howdy, I'm just getting started with the concept of building or buying a FED and I'm looking at what advice I can about the whole process. Combing through the forums here I see a constant thought, and that is plan what you want to do. With that in mind here's what I'm looking at:
A non-blown gas powered (probably SBC or SBF) slingshot/rail/whatever-you-would-like-to-call-it FED that is raced just for fun
I am a trained welder (associate's degree in it from a tech college and some actual work in the field), but it has been about 15 years since I did any serious welding. I changed careers and haven't really been back to it. I can read blueprints, prep pipe, run a bead, etc. I was quite good with a MIG gun, and tolerable with TIG. At the moment I don't own a welder of any sort.
As far as car knowledge goes, I'm not the traditional hot rodder. I've never built an engine from a bare block, and don't performance tune my cars. I can work on my cars just fine, and basically so long as it's not a modern automatic transmission I fine doing my own work. I enjoy working on my cars as well, I just liking driving them more than wrenching. I've got a decent bit of track experience (road racing, not much oval) and I've professionally taught high performance driving for several years as part of my day job.
The money tree grows very slowly, and produces little fruit currently. I know that for a lot people getting a roller or even a turnkey turns out to be cheaper in the long run, but requires a lot more capital up front. It does also get you to the strip a heck of a lot faster.
I'm going to order SFI specs for 7.5 and take a look through them. Is it worth it to get the 6.0 specs instead? I'm guessing I'd be in at least $1K to purchase the tubing, a manual bender, and a decent welder to build the frame. Does that sound about right, for a mild steel frame? If I can find a decent quality certified roller for not much more I'd go for that just for the time savings.
For an engine, would you guys recommend building off a bare block or would a donor engine be the way to go? At this stage I'm just looking to get passes in and get comfortable with things before I worry too much about times, so as long as I'm able to get a little tire smoke I'm not worried about power or ET's.
As far as powertrain goes I've seen a lot of recommendations for a powerglide. Are there other options out there that will work for what I'm after? I'm not against going with a powerglide, I'm just seeing what's out there.
Lastly can anyone recommend any books, videos, etc that I can peruse while I slowly get this going?
Thanks!
-Jenrick
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Buy a car , generaly .40 on the dollar and go racing tomorrow, by the time you work down your list it will be a couple years and could lose interest. Mild steel chassie are losers in the long run. SFI 2-4 (6.00) is the best spec out here to build to and the only difference is the bigger dia shoulder hoop.
To give you an idea what you are up against, couple weeks ago I put a dragster frame together and just tacked welded it. Now I have built many dragster frames, I have a frame table with tooling fixtures to hold the major compoents and tubing saddles, full machine shop and tubing benders. It took ME 35 hrs to do this and this was just a 150" frame and no roll cage yet. And thats the easy part, its all the other stuff takes a lot more time.
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I'm thinking.
http://www.lever-family-racing.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/Dragster-ad.pdf (http://www.lever-family-racing.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/Dragster-ad.pdf)
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I'd love to be able to go turn key, but the starting capital isn't going to happen. The attached flyer at $40K, is WAY out of my lump sum price range. $15K would be the most I'd have any chance of doing, and that'd be getting several buddies in on things (which I'm working on doing anyway at least).
dreracecar: Thanks for the break down on frame construction time. That does help put things in perspective.
What is the general opinion of some of the chassis kits, or chassis builders? I know I'll be looking at a $2K-$5K outlay, but I can probably make that happen.
-Jenrick
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PM sent Give me a call if like.
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Hi Jenrick:
I am not worthy to say much but can offer a little from my perspective. Theres so much to talk about but hitting a few things that pop to thought.
It always boils down to time and money . Everyone's different and what applies to you.
What I can say about buying a used car is you have to be very very careful. One: you sometimes dont know what the car has been through, two: will it pass cert and or what does it need, three: will your combo fit. IE if you run a Ford ( please do) you have to watch for clearance around the oil filter. Some cars start narrowing up as soon as they pass Engine Plate.
In general if you look at a used car it would behoove you to know what your combo is going to be so you can see if car will work. Clutch pedal, engine out, width of chassis, Will you fit safely and legally, Where will your accessories mount. etc.
Dont settle to much set a standard and stick to it. Its your life you want to have fun and not hurt somebody.
Theres lots of chassis kits. It can get you with a chassis in the Garage fast and you can start the never ending to do list. :o
Also, This is a great board filled with smart people. Dont take it personal if somebody says something to you. Good people will tell you what you need to hear not necessarily what you want to hear.
Good luck post your build
Luke
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For what it's worth if I was in your position I would by a new bare chassis from Rooman or Brian King and a non certifiable roller and use it as a donor
Cheers
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Chassis kits just saves you time locating material and components, one still has to jig and fit everything
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I understand the not being able to chunk down full cost in one shot. There is a lot to look at when doing ground up build.
IMO building your own pays huge dividends. I sent you pm with phone number if you want I can give good idea of thing to dbl check plus a cpl don't do's. Too much to type plus just easier to go over as much as possible .
If picking one thing ,well actually two. Jig and set of plans. Neil & Parks and S&W sell plans or with research you can do your own. might add a copy of SFI spec for chassis you want.IMO going step to faster spec is not bad idea. Once you hve these its matter of getting tubing rearend husing and block wit alignment bar.
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Thanks for all the advice so far guys. I'm inclined to go with either a tacked kit, or a fully welded chassis if I can't find a good roller.
Obviously for a welded chassis I'm guessing I should make sure I get one that is already stickered, does anyone even make one that isn't? For a roller, is that critical? If it's stickered I know that it'll pass tech (well should at least), but would getting one that is just out of date normally be an issue? How much stuff does SFI update/change regularly?
Obviously regardless of a chassis, kit, or roller, I'm guessing I should look for one that is already setup in general for what I'm looking at putting in it. How big of a change is usually necessitated if it's setup for say a BBC vs a SBC?
Thanks,
-Jenrick
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Jenrick, because I build front dragster wheels and I formed the Jr Fuel Dragster Association I talk to FED guys alot.
So as far as used dragsters for sale I know a guy in Oklahoma that had a rolling chassis w/o motor with sticker for $10k, just add motor and go racing. He raced it with SouthWest Jr Fuel Association in Tx and Ok, and SHRR with a blower. One of our JrFuel teams bought a complete car with an all iron 14° SBC with spares and trailer for $27k [ a super deal], the best car I know for sale is the fastest Jr "B" car and the lightest at 1355 lbs with driver and iron SBC, that has run 6.96, he wants $40k for everything, but I think $20k for chassis, maybe less now, it's in Calif. BTW you can't build it for that, much less buy the parts. Another current west coast JrFuel racer can put together from spare parts a chassis and iron SBC for $25k. And I know a past Comp Elim champion that just told me he would sell his complete race car, B/ND, Jr fuel "B" that has run 6.92 [ that's .640 under the index] with a 220lb driver, was runner-up at the 2015 Winternationals for $60k.
So of course it all depends on your budget and how fast you want to go and what series you plan on running.
Call anytime 805-444-4489, cell
Jon Hansen Hayden wheels and JFDA
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Most quality builders will build a chassis that will pass cert, but since the certs are date sensitive they don't pre cert till the car is ready to race in order to save the cost of the fees. In all honestly, you are very lacking of the basics of this endever and is imposable to learn this by posting questions on chat rooms and getting various opinions. Use your time and get with local team all the while building your bank. The knowledge of running is such an education in every facet of this and the people around you will guide you so as not make bad moves.
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A Sticker and passing tech is TWO different animals
NHRA will grab your $$$ and slap a sticker on --it is all about the drivers space and does it meet the book specs for a bar here , a bar there , diameter and thickness etc SIMPLE
Passing tech at an NHRA event is a big kettle of fish that is all about the rest of the rule book includes drivers gear, and lots of details about the car
Thing is....It is more likely that you will run the car at regular old tracks and events that care nothing about tech in any form whatsoever--you will spend a lot of loot to pass NHRA, get licensed etc just to run say Bowling Green etc once a year
Around here 9 times out of ten no track cares or checks anything
Now...Your personal safety is #1 and that should be Job #1 with every decision you make--and..a legal car is worth way more $$ than a Scud with questionable everything but..
Getting a NHRA sticker is easy if you follow a few simple rules in the book and fork over the $$$$
Being Safe is a whole other deal--that sticker is a very small part of that total picture.
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Most quality builders will build a chassis that will pass cert, but since the certs are date sensitive they don't pre cert till the car is ready to race in order to save the cost of the fees. In all honestly, you are very lacking of the basics of this endever and is imposable to learn this by posting questions on chat rooms and getting various opinions. Use your time and get with local team all the while building your bank. The knowledge of running is such an education in every facet of this and the people around you will guide you so as not make bad moves.
I agree--Hang out, join a club, crew for free to learn---you will learn a ton FAST!
Without steady funds to donate to the deal for about two years you should just watch and save up $$
A half baked project is never ever worth but a small portion of what you have spent should you change your mind and bail
My wife dodged a cancer scare last week or you could have bought my new fresh unit for a deal!
Save up and be patient--wait for a killer deal and have $$ ready!
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While I would love to be able to crew on someone else's car family and work schedule make that pretty much impossible. Also I'm quiet aware that I'm not as knowledgeable about running an FED as I would like to be, but that's why I'm here. Beyond getting the SFI specs and NHRA rulebook, where else can I learn about things besides places like this?
For those who have offered advice I appreciate it immensely, and I'll keep digging to hopefully achieve my goal of running a FED.
-Jenrick
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Building a car the way you're talking can be done and is done all the time. Whether or not you can do it for $15K depends on you and your group of friends abilities. I have several customers doing just what you're talking about, racing "fun" cars. They might not be terribly fast with mild small blocks, but they always have a smile on their faces. A 7.50 car is fine, it might even be what keeps you from going hog wild and pricing yourself out of racing. There's plenty of guys who want to race and never go quicker than mid 8's. There's also more different than just the shoulder hoop diameter, allowing for a lighter chassis which will help make your budget small block propel your car to better E.T's.
If you can afford a few thousand dollars to get started and are disciplined enough to put away a few hundred dollars a month to buy parts every three months, you can get there. Starting with a good plan and not changing course will save you money in the long run.
The keys here are discipline and follow through.
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Keep digging, you will do well, ask questions. There are some on this board that are a little intolerant of beginners, but we were all beginners at one point in time.
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Contact David Beard at dragster supply sells great kit cars to complete cars and can work with any budget he is a great guy and you will be friends when done I own two of his cars . dragstersupply.com
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My advice for what it is worth comes from my first car and what I am doing now for my second. I knew I wanted a FED but that was about as far as I went. What you want to do with it class wise and ET makes a huge difference. And if you are like most of us you may just change your mind as you go.
I helped a local team that ran JR fuel and learned so much from them and other racers, and a large part of it was what not to do.
I bought a roller very cheap and very old. Paid someone to back half the car who was a very good welder but knew squat about drag cars. I got lucky and knew just enough to get a car done that was safe and not too ugly. My initial thought included a radiator, water pump, battery, and bracket racing. Then after getting involved with the JR fuel guys I went simple, light, and for the time fast (for me anyway). I built as much as I could in the way of small fabricated parts, but as I did not own a TIG or the know how to use it. Mild steel was never even a thought as you can get it done, but if you ever intend to go faster or resell it you are stuck. I certainly understand the thought of paying out small money several times as opposed to cutting one big check. If you start too bare it will nickle and dime you to death. My chassis came with a good 8 3/4 rear. $1000 later it had new guts in it and was usable to the power levels I wanted. I did not keep count of the money of the 3 years or so it took to finish, but I bet I was in it for $10k 13 years ago and the car was not competitive. Lots of trades and deals with only the safety equipment purchased new.
Had a little on track accident and bent that one and parked it.
Fast forward to now. I still cant TIG weld and have spent enough money with other shops to buy a nice welder and learn. I got lucky and ran into a local racer with a FED on a jig in his shop now and he offered to help me with a new one. I will use his bender, jig, and he will help with the welding. I will use all my old hard parts and just use his shop for the chassis itself. It is important to me that someone with experience weld this up as my life depends on it. I can handle all the little stuff like shifter bracket, body, etc.
For my situation a kit would be great, except I have the rear, and the front axle and I can buy just the tube and a few other pieces. While I love the fabrication there are a few parts that I will buy ready made, like the motor plate, rear end uprights, and the uprights next to the motor that allow cables to pass through. (probably from Parks)
I admire you for wanting to start from scratch, but a kit or a roller would be a better start. And as harsh as the other advice sounded you really need to get out and learn more before you start. It gets real expensive to do it twice.
Good luck however you do it, keep asking questions.
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The deals are out there and happen all the time. Have a pile of money saved up and get a better value. Building a car is a long term proposition. If you really want to learn race fabrication then (by all means) build. If you want to go to the track and race buy a complete used roller that only requires a powertrain or engine.
Sometimes the fabrication provides a way for you and your friends to become better acquainted and grow closer. I made better, closer and even some new friends building a car. It just takes a long time if you have the traditional responsibilities in your life. Good Luck!
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Before you buy, you need to know your dimensions. put on a fire suit, helmet proper shoes, gloves, and proper neck brace, with aid of a friend and a dinner plate, sit against a wall with your knees drawn up about half way and holding the dinner plate in front of you with your elbows just cocked a little and your shoulders flat against the wall. Get measurements for helmet to floor, plate to wall, width of shoulders and back to center of knees. These are your starting points for fitting a car to you. You have to fit the car to run it or you will never be comfortable.
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There has been a lot of good advise given here.
My experiences with building a car is its quite a bit more expensive. I went through buying parts and putting them on the shelf until I had enough to build something. That cost me seemingly triple what buying a roller would have cost and will get about 1/3 return when I sell it.
My advise is buy a roller or a turn key car. Look at the "for sale" section here. There are 6 on the 1st page. Maybe one should consider that there ARE 6 on the 1st page before jumping in. I didn't and 10 years down the road and I still have never taken the car to the track.
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I started with new tacked chassis bare--took 2 1/2 years--every friend I had chipping in his tallents, every dime i could scrape for 2 1/2 years--over $15k then you need trailer etc fire suit
Building my car was best thing I have ever done but--car worth lots less than $ spent If i had built a legal class car would be worth every penny spent but this fun machine with limited appeal to the drag race market is not that way
Lots of folks Love a FED and will never race anything else--some make a few runs and decide no way not for me ( wimps :) )
Buy a roller--drop in a CHEAP SBC and just try it--you mentioned you do not have time to crew etc so how will you have time to race? It takes HELP to run one of these--can't do it alone at the track--that is a big issue going forward
Without a dedicated dad, uncle, wife, etc it is hard
There is also limited events to run these--great for me I don't like to run every wk end--just run when I want to and weather is perfect
I would snag a roller--aim for 9.0 1/4 mile and you will be astonished how fast that is and how cheap it can be done aiming for a 7.50 ride first time is fools errand IMO
asking price for every turn key car out there is $15k--they don't get that if they want it gone so....
There are LOTS of Cenpen chassis out there bought by dreamers and never touched--available tacked and ready to work on pretty darn cheap--they are safe and work OK and are easy to build out--they are wide in the seat so resale good --narrow older cars don't sell because the guys that have the funds will not fit
Tons of satisfaction building your car--Hard to Do and takes grit and way more $$$ than you can ever imagine
My $15K was after dozens of barter/trade/ flipping deals that saved me thousands so.....
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I built my car from scratch, My friend Keven helped. The complete build working one to two days a week on it, took one year almost to the day. The NHRA tech inspected it and tagged it for TOP FUEL 5.99 & faster. Total cost was $5,000 as a roller less the safety gear.
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I will agree with Van on Cost. I have right at 6500 in roller with trans. I did look around for deals. Found a bunch of them mostly wheels ,tires and trans parts. I will say get list of tubing needed and try to buy as much as possible in one order.For me its about 175 mile round trip to supplier for molly tubing. With tubing measure 3 times then cut,if in doubt allow little extra.
My build has taken longer to complete The main chassis went fairly quick.Getting stuff like New rear axles and other high ticket items did take a while.
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Like others have said TAKE YOUR TIME, if you build from scratch and your pockets aren't full of money it's going to take awhile, if someone offers advice you don't like hearing, put your feeling aside and think about why there are taking there time to offer it, all chassis guys aren't alike, That being said , after running a few of my own cars in the later 70's and working on fuel cars in the 80's and 90's, in 2011 I decided to get back into racing and have fun,,, but my build is an odd ball 58 style chassis powered by a ford flathead, with a 39 trans behind it, not many off the shelf stuff for this car,, I've added as much safety changes as I could think of with out changeing the general idea of the car, lots of tubeing added to the cockpit, I'm cheap when it comes to buying parts for the car, So I take my time, I've gotten lots of advice while building the car, i don't always take it but I atleast try to hear what they are getting at, I finally got to see the car run on it's own power last week, but thanks to a slipped coupler it was just a couple quick hits, plus my Grilfriend is driveing and has never done anything like this before , so it's going to be a slow process,, so take your time, Have fun , Here's a link to my build on the hamb , (Glenn didn't have this site when I started) Tim Jones http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/threads/chassis-research-style-dragster-comp-coupe-build-flathead-powered.645702/
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Building a car the way you're talking can be done and is done all the time. Whether or not you can do it for $15K depends on you and your group of friends abilities. I have several customers doing just what you're talking about, racing "fun" cars. They might not be terribly fast with mild small blocks, but they always have a smile on their faces. A 7.50 car is fine, it might even be what keeps you from going hog wild and pricing yourself out of racing. There's plenty of guys who want to race and never go quicker than mid 8's. There's also more different than just the shoulder hoop diameter, allowing for a lighter chassis which will help make your budget small block propel your car to better E.T's.
If you can afford a few thousand dollars to get started and are disciplined enough to put away a few hundred dollars a month to buy parts every three months, you can get there. Starting with a good plan and not changing course will save you money in the long run.
The keys here are discipline and follow through.
You hit the nail on the head sir, this is all about having a good time at the strip. I'm not in this to lay down a strip record or anything like that.
To those who are recommending a kit or roller, I'm pretty sure I'm going that route. Again I'm a competent welder, but the cost of a good welder alone really cuts into any savings doing it myself would provide.
Before you buy, you need to know your dimensions. put on a fire suit, helmet proper shoes, gloves, and proper neck brace, with aid of a friend and a dinner plate, sit against a wall with your knees drawn up about half way and holding the dinner plate in front of you with your elbows just cocked a little and your shoulders flat against the wall. Get measurements for helmet to floor, plate to wall, width of shoulders and back to center of knees. These are your starting points for fitting a car to you. You have to fit the car to run it or you will never be comfortable.
Excellent point, I shall do so.
Buy a roller--drop in a CHEAP SBC and just try it--you mentioned you do not have time to crew etc so how will you have time to race? It takes HELP to run one of these--can't do it alone at the track--that is a big issue going forward
Due to my work schedule and location making it out to any of the local dates is dang near impossible without taking time off from work. While I can probably do so if I take vacation, I can't do that often enough to work on someone's crew usefully. Having raced/crewed before (SCCA) I know how much of a commitment it takes to be an effective part of the machine versus just a guy who hangs out every once in a while. A couple of my buddies from work are more than willing to wrench since we all work the same schedule.
I would snag a roller--aim for 9.0 1/4 mile and you will be astonished how fast that is and how cheap it can be done aiming for a 7.50 ride first time is fools errand IMO
That's pretty much what I'm going for, I ordered the specs for 7.50 so I could overbuild versus being chassis limited later down the line potentially, but I'm certainly not planning on a 8 car with what I'm trying to do.
Honestly a stage 3 chassis from David Beard or something similar seems the way to go.
-Jenrick
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Like others have said TAKE YOUR TIME, if you build from scratch and your pockets aren't full of money it's going to take awhile, if someone offers advice you don't like hearing, put your feeling aside and think about why there are taking there time to offer it, all chassis guys aren't alike, That being said , after running a few of my own cars in the later 70's and working on fuel cars in the 80's and 90's, in 2011 I decided to get back into racing and have fun,,, but my build is an odd ball 58 style chassis powered by a ford flathead, with a 39 trans behind it, not many off the shelf stuff for this car,, I've added as much safety changes as I could think of with out changeing the general idea of the car, lots of tubeing added to the cockpit, I'm cheap when it comes to buying parts for the car, So I take my time, I've gotten lots of advice while building the car, i don't always take it but I atleast try to hear what they are getting at, I finally got to see the car run on it's own power last week, but thanks to a slipped coupler it was just a couple quick hits, plus my Grilfriend is driveing and has never done anything like this before , so it's going to be a slow process,, so take your time, Have fun , Here's a link to my build on the hamb , (Glenn didn't have this site when I started) Tim Jones http://www.jalopyjournal.com/forum/threads/chassis-research-style-dragster-comp-coupe-build-flathead-powered.645702/
Tim, very nice build thread!
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if you build it yourself i would go to the 6.0 cert. not the 7.50 just thoughts :o
steve m.
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-Jenrick, where are you located?
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Sorry,
Life got in the way lately. Central Texas near Austin.
-Jenrick
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Jenrick you were crossing my mind some when starting this thread . Bought this car used and thought it would work for my combination.
Welllllll ::) :o
http://www.frontenginedragsters.org/forum/index.php/topic,1746.0.html
thanks
Luke