FrontEngineDragsters.Org Forum
Drag Racing Discussions => Front Engine Dragsters => Topic started by: Slowride on December 15, 2014, 06:22:11 PM
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Looking to build a short wheelbase FED in the 130-140 range. What are the disadvantages or advantages of the shorter rails?
Thanks!
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Wheel stands and bending front ends.
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And some bent front wheels too. And extra weight too for the front end ballast to try and keep the wheels on the track. if you can't steer you'll keep hit the cones or the wall. You can't win any races by clicking it early. Back-in-the-day when short cars were being raced it was before VHT and they just smoked the tires to keep the RPM up to where the engine made good power. if you make the wheel base longer you'll have more fun, if you are going to race on any bumpy tracks, the longer more flexable chassis will work better.
Now if your goal is to build a short WB car because you only have a short shop and/or short trailer I know a JrFuel Racer that had a chassis built in two pieces. He just had a clever dolly to load his dragster in his short trailer.
Now if your goal is to build a let 50's early 60's looking like FED, then make sure to put period correct engine, wheels, tires, roll cage so it could be a fine cackle/show car.
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Interesting replies so far, but it would be handy to know the rest of your planned combination as well. Planning on building a short wheelbase flathead powered car? Probably be just fine. Same car with a stout injected big block? Could be a handful. Plenty of guys out there running mild small blocks in short-ish cars with no problems. Your ultimate goal will determine what you want and need to do. Want to have fun with a mild combination that won't need much maintenance but will leave you smiling until the next race? You can do that with a mild power short car. Want to be competitive in Jr.Fuel? You might want to rethink your plan.
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Makes no difference at all long or short, how the car works (any car) is up to the owner to figure out what to do. If you are unwilling to do that then start with a longer car. I have 100" wheelbase altereds on fuel running over 200mph without any issues.
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The car has to be balanced for the wheelbase, how far the engine is out from rear axle centerline, what kind of weight is up front. The shorter the dragster, the wider the front end needs to be for stability.
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I prefer a longer car but I also don't see why you could not do it ! Look at how fast a funny car is with a short wheel base ! Your biggest problems will be in the first 300 ft but as some of the other guys have said proper balance and not too big of a tire will help you . Have fun !
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Thanks for the advice guys. That's why I asked the guys that know.
I'm just a poor enlisted guy that loves FEDs and wants to go racing for fun. I just plan on running an injected SBF on methanol for starters. My garage won't hold a 200" WB car and I'll probably just use an open trailer first.
I intended to run an altered, but I've had a hard time finding one that will fit a guy who is 6'4".
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I started out like you
Wound up with a 200 inch Cenpen--would have liked it to be a 180 for many reasons like trailer etc but...
It drives like a dream and Trust me SBC on injected alky is all you will ever need--they are Fast!!!
I am 3 years ahead of you and would say get as long as you can fit in your space etc--easier to go fast later with long I think--the guys in my dragster club all say longer is better for rookies anyway.
Yes, a car with engine set way out works but none/ few are that way--the old school look is cool but makes for sensitive car that can be hairy to launch etc
shop around--take your time now and it will pay off later--The Cen Pens or Worm cars are all approx 21 1/2 at the sholder and fit big boys well with a poured foam seat bottom
Go to any Nostalgia meet and watch--the short cars all look cool but usually never make full hard passes--they are cool / fun but--- the long cars all stage up and rip it
Good Luck!
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Of course we don't know your garage story, but maybe you could what Glen, the host of this site did, cut a hole in the garage wall and stick the front end in the patio on the otherside. Or crossways in a two car garage, or share a bigger shop with one or two buddies.
Or you can do what what my partner did that owns the chassis, he built a doghouse deal to extend the shop/garage when we front halfed the car and went from 200'' to 225". The fold-down one piece door just closes over the dog house. It's about 3 feet long. I'll take photos if you are interested. Just be creative about your shop.
I know of a 180" Cen Pen car not finished for sale for under $4k, just needs body, fuel tank, and plumbing and wiring, and an engine trans of course.
Jon Hansen
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My injected nitro digger is 200". It has a Gene Adams early hemi tune up, so it starts out with the full load hammer blows - not creeping up on it!...........At times, I sure wished I had an extra 25" wheel base, but we are working with what we have. So far 50 lbs weight have been added up front. Next move is to re-locate the fire bottles from midship to up front.
I've driven lots of cars down the track (even wheelstanders!) but this my first FED and the first few hard hits in the Fossil Fueler felt spooky. Front end was real light - but thats probably just my inexperience with this kind of car.
As mentioned above, you can make it work with any wheelbase if you go about it in a methodical way. Just takes a little time.
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125" Wheelbase:
http://youtu.be/p4uM4cRGUso
140" wheelbase
http://youtu.be/NZjh6o8Ug1w
140" wheelbase
http://youtu.be/8C6zY9b2u14
It looks like it can be done, it just depends on what you want to do with the car, and how bad you want it.
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I have no clue about how the different length wheelbases behave on the strip as i havent tried yet.... But i do own an 180" wb FED and i had to extend my garage a little bit to make it fit straight in.
I also wanted a shorter wb, but the guys on this forum converted me ;D
Oh, and talking about short wheelbase - i have an Fiat 600 in the making that will be powered by a turboed flat4 vw engine. It has 78" wb ;) Should be able to do low 10`s.
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Our 223" car goes straight as a string but as we make more power the more difficult it has become to control . At seasons end we were about 50% in getting the car off the line. Half the time it would 60' below 1.00 sec and the other half it would smoke the tires. This winter we moved the fuel tank (3 gallons) as far forward as possible. Also installed a 1.69 low gear in place of the 1.80. The 2-20# fire bottles are as far forward as the cables will allow, We have a 40+# battery inside the nose piece. Also we run a 4.10 with a 33" tire. We have some ballast installed as well. I can't imagine how much weight we would need out front on a shorter car. My goal is to run 4.50 in the 1/8 mile consistently .
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Go to any Nostalgia meet and watch--the short cars all look cool but usually never make full hard passes--they are cool / fun but--- the long cars all stage up and rip it
Good Luck!
That statment is the biggest load of #### I have ever seen posted!!!
As a chassie builder, If the car is built correctly, wheelbase is a non issue. I have been working on a 225" chassie (from a well know builder who people worship) that the owner has been fighting for years to get down the track consistantly. Just finnished front halfing it because everything was off
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Go to any Nostalgia meet and watch--the short cars all look cool but usually never make full hard passes--they are cool / fun but--- the long cars all stage up and rip it
Good Luck!
That statment is the biggest load of #### I have ever seen posted!!!
I'd have to agree with dre on this.
Not to mention the fact that if you don't know whats going on with the combination, you can't make a judgement on whats causing the issue. Part time nostalgia guys looking to have a little fun for a little cash may not have a well sorted combination. Even guys with good overall combination are known to make mistakes or cheap out on parts.
There's also the driver equation, I've seen cars that can't seem to get down the track suddenly start making great runs after the car was sold or a new driver was installed.
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Alright guys, let’s watch the oil pressure here…
I’m not disputing that chassis tuning and driver experience are the biggest factors for a good pass, but wouldn’t you guys agree that, back in the days when diggers didn’t have traction, those short wheelbase chassis weren’t shocked as much during launch as they are now with sticky tires?
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Alright guys, let’s watch the oil pressure here…
I’m not disputing that chassis tuning and driver experience are the biggest factors for a good pass, but wouldn’t you guys agree that, back in the days when diggers didn’t have traction, those short wheelbase chassis weren’t shocked as much during launch as they are now with sticky tires?
They may not have been, but it brings us right back to your line about chassis tuning and driver experience. And we're not back in those days. We have good tires and prepped tracks so we build cars to run on them. There's way more to the equation than the wheelbase. Is a 225" car better for some applications than a 175" car? Probably, but not for the vast majority of guys running for fun. Which brings up another point. If a car gets built to have a certain look, it's bound to be full of compromises on the performance end. A true race car is built with optimal component placement in mind, not worrying about whether or not that component looks good where it is.
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Ricardo
Apples an onions
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Back to the original question about a 130 to 140 inch car . You should be just fine if you are planning on going out and having fun like a mid 8 second car . Your biggest problem will be finding the right tire that will work for your car . Most of us with the longer cars use the 12x31 Goodyears and I think that would be too much tire for your car . Like some one else posted earlier the tracks and tires are much better than they were . Back in the seventy's I ran a 140 inch car with 10 inch tires . We ran mid 8's with it and it handled very well . If you have plans on going faster like a mid 7 second car then I would go with the longer car . Bill
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This was my 140 inch car
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I'm building a 138in car, it s a bracket car with period styling cues built ti run around 8.80's. It'll have near 40lb of weight on the axle, 10" tyre and a 3.70 gear to tame the launch but still rev to 7k through the stripe. No reason you can't build a build a short car for bracket / index racing
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This sounds exactly what your're talking about. 140"wheel base, very tired 302 windsor, solid camshaft, Enderle injection, C4 trans, 3.7 diff gears, 28.5 x10.5 tyre. Leaves from idle, runs 6.1 over the eigth @ 7,000 rpm in second gear. Has no added weight other than it runs a battery.
(http://i567.photobucket.com/albums/ss117/Retro-boy/kymbo_zpsc2755811.jpg) (http://s567.photobucket.com/user/Retro-boy/media/kymbo_zpsc2755811.jpg.html)
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How is this!
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New to the site as a member, but been a lurker on here for awhile. just wanted to throw my $0.02 into the mix, how about a 98"wb!
I personally watched another 98" wb sbc injected Lyndwood (like mine pictured) rip off straight pass's in the 8.90's till the track said "no more" due to the style & age of the chassis. his set up was a 355 injected ,PG. He also added wheelie bars as these tend to stand up, but it hooked & went, later on he couldn't stop on a pass & hit a brick wall at 40-50 mph.
Back in the day my dragster ran A/D till about 1964 and ran consistently in the high 8's with the technology of the time.
Paul
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This was my 140 inch car
Bill that is the shot of the week there.. Love it love it. 8) 8)
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Putting to large a tire on a FED seems to be a regular problem. A 9X30 or 10.5X31 slick would work just fine on most FED's.
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I am new here and toying with the notion of fabricating an old style shorty f.e.d. using a 312 Interceptor coupled to a Warner Gear Velvet drive transmission without a clutch. I am aware that I would have to run a pretty skinny slick so it'd just lite em up on the line. I was thinking around 130-140" and about a 5.5-6:1 gear ratio with a 9 or 10 inch wide by 29" tire. That would put me around 95-100 in the 1/8 tops. This would only see occasional track duty at the local 1/8 mile strip ans mostly get trailered around making noise at the local car shows with the zoomies. I want it in the true to the day early 60s fashion as far as the style. The transmission is a 1:1 unit with reverse. My questions are 1: Has anyone ever run this type of setup? and 2: What about the front axle?? Torsion bar or fixed axle? Also working on a budget and trying to figure out what rim and tire combo for the front. Anybody running motorcycle rims???
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More
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still more
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Chris,
at the wheelbase that you are talking about it would probably be a good idea to have some sort of front suspension. A street rod style dropped early Ford beam axle and transverse spring would be era correct and easily sourced or you could build your own torsion bar package after reading this: http://www.wediditforlove.com/techtalk18.html It is probably the best story ever to explain to a newbie just what is involved in building a car from scratch.
As for the drive line that you are suggesting, I have no experience with that package but presume that it incorporates some sort of torque converter. If it is indeed 1:1 without any additional multiplication via a lower first gear I think that it would be more prone to slipping the converter than spinning the tires at the hit.
Roo
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Babor, I agree with ROO, if you want to build a 130-140 wb FED you should have suspension, my 1963 nitro JrFuel 102 wb car had torsion bar suspension, if you're going for that late 50's look.
Motorcycle rims is all we use at Hayden Wheels to make dragster wire spoke wheels [ haydenent.com], matter-a-fact all front dragster wheels, even before Garlits are M/C rims. Now hubs are another issue, the only modified M/C hubs I have used to make dragster wheels was machined for different bearings HD trike. The most common spindles, even in 63 are Anglia, but the other option is early Ford, but not too many of the Ford hubs available. The most common wheel/ rim size is 17", but I make quite a few 18", and I have made 19", 20" and 21" wheels. So you need to figure what size/ height wheel and tire will work on your FED. When you get that far you could send me your rims and I can build you a nice set of wheels and tires
Jon Hansen, Hayden Wheels, 800-624-3803