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Drag Racing Discussions => Front Engine Dragsters => Topic started by: Curly1 on March 12, 2017, 07:23:10 AM

Title: Some basic simple questions
Post by: Curly1 on March 12, 2017, 07:23:10 AM
Okay I am thinking of getting a 225 inch front engine dragster. My questions are.
1. How do you set it up so it goes straight when front wheels are up?
2. How do you limit wheelies? Or is that even an issue with 225 inch car?
3. Any other tips for setting it up so it leaves hard and straight?

While I think I may know the answers I want to verify with people who have been there done that. Thanks,
Title: Re: Some basic simple questions
Post by: masracingtd1167 on March 12, 2017, 09:46:21 AM
Bruce I am pretty sure you know what to do ! With my car the wheelie bar and the tire are the most important pieces you need to work with ! My bar is 5 ft long and pretty flexible . I want the wheel to hit but not too hard . Just enough to let the tire squat at the hit ! As the car comes up on the tire it will drive the front up a little but not bad and as long as the bar is straight the car will go straight ! I have had the best luck with the 2585 Good Year tire but I also have run the Hoosier 12 x 33 and it was not a bad tire !My motor is out only 36 inches and I have made it work for me . If I had it to do over I would have the motor a little further out ! i moved every thing I could to the front of the car even my ignition box and it has helped a lot !
Title: Re: Some basic simple questions
Post by: dreracecar on March 12, 2017, 10:11:54 AM
To get a car to launch straight you need 3 things,  rear tires of equal circumference and air pressure, enough weight on the front to keep front end rise to around 6"max, and​ most important is to have somebody in front to back you up straight and back behind the line far enough that you pull into the beams straight
Title: Re: Some basic simple questions
Post by: JrFuel Hayden on March 12, 2017, 11:41:13 AM
I agree Bruce, plus a wheelie bar that limits the front end height, low enough to control a wheelie, but not too high that it allows the bar to hit hard enough to unload the slicks.
Jon
Title: Re: Some basic simple questions
Post by: dusterdave173 on March 12, 2017, 11:52:28 AM
I agree
one tip is when measuring to center the wheelie bar wheel it must be measured from the axle flange or brake rotor--yank the tires off and do that part right--makes all the difference IMO
Bar to high you gonna fly those fronts--our ideal setting is wheel about 2 3/4 inch up--it can go higher but when too high it is obvious
Bruce is soooo right about getting dang car in the groove--learning what the groove really is and really looks like is not exactly what you may think--study and ask around   
pulling in dead straight with no 'preload" on things form wiggling at the last minute is important   get straight and pull up no Army staging ( left right left)
all this has helped us
Title: Re: Some basic simple questions
Post by: ricardo1967 on March 12, 2017, 04:08:19 PM
Curly,
I'm a newbie but I agree with everything said here. I've learned my lesson that my wheelie bar isn't very effective when left in the trailer.

https://youtu.be/eySjAE0jjRo
Title: Re: Some basic simple questions
Post by: Supercat on March 12, 2017, 04:15:18 PM
ouch... Any damage or were you lucky?
Title: Re: Some basic simple questions
Post by: Frontenginedragsters on March 12, 2017, 04:25:32 PM
 Curly 1:
I agree with the statements about wheelie bars but Bruce / dreracecar was the only one to mention tire circumference.
Please make this a priority in the shop and the pit area.
We have FED's and rear tire circumference is the only thing steering the car when the front tires are off the ground.
Keep it safe and it stays fun !!
 
Title: Re: Some basic simple questions
Post by: ricardo1967 on March 12, 2017, 04:38:14 PM
ouch... Any damage or were you lucky?
I was lucky. The obvious damage were broken front hub and bent rim (fixed by master Jon Hansen - Hayden Wheels (http://www.haydenent.com/)). I plan doing a thorough check in the car before racing again. The car has been in storage since that day (life gest in the way).
Title: Re: Some basic simple questions
Post by: Curly1 on March 12, 2017, 05:52:25 PM
Thanks for all of the great tips. I run an Altered 5.0 in NE2 and have been fairly successful but the dragster is a whole new animal. My Altered is a four link and I learned how to make it work. The dragster of course is hard tail and I know nothing about how to tune that.. Really looking forward to this and appreciate your help and suggestions. This dragster has been a very good working car so I should be okay or at least have a good starting point.
Title: Re: Some basic simple questions
Post by: George on March 12, 2017, 06:06:13 PM
We run a 223" car . It started as a 600hp injected SBC and now run a blower setup that has maybe 1000hp. I moved all the weight as far forward as possible. The battery is in the nose , 3 gallon fuel tank  and 2-10# fire bottles are all out front now.  I wouldn't suggest running without a wheelie bar. You can see in the picture even a long wheelbase car can carry the wheels.
Title: Re: Some basic simple questions
Post by: Curly1 on March 12, 2017, 06:29:39 PM
I do plan on running the wheelie bar and my motor combination is very close to what was in it. 760 Hp and should be easy 4.90- 5.0.
Driving an Altered I have learned about having it lined up right before you pull the trigger. Lol.
Title: Re: Some basic simple questions
Post by: Paul New on March 12, 2017, 09:53:24 PM
Wow big air one other thing I see watching your video tighten those shoulder belts more it looks like you can move around quite a bit!
Title: Re: Some basic simple questions
Post by: ricardo1967 on March 13, 2017, 05:28:18 AM
Wow big air one other thing I see watching your video tighten those shoulder belts more it looks like you can move around quite a bit!
Note taken, thanks Paul!
Title: Re: Some basic simple questions
Post by: Paul New on March 13, 2017, 12:12:38 PM
Wow big air one other thing I see watching your video tighten those shoulder belts more it looks like you can move around quite a bit!
Note taken, thanks Paul!

No problem that is one of my things I notice a friend of mine crashed with his belts a loose and it beat him up pretty good
Title: Re: Some basic simple questions
Post by: fuel749 on March 13, 2017, 01:58:33 PM
Wow big air one other thing I see watching your video tighten those shoulder belts more it looks like you can move around quite a bit!
Note taken, thanks Paul!

No problem that is one of my things I notice a friend of mine crashed with his belts a loose and it beat him up pretty good

Loose belts are a bigger problem than most people think. Snug isn't good enough.
Title: Re: Some basic simple questions
Post by: rooman on March 14, 2017, 05:52:49 AM
Wow big air one other thing I see watching your video tighten those shoulder belts more it looks like you can move around quite a bit!
Note taken, thanks Paul!

No problem that is one of my things I notice a friend of mine crashed with his belts a loose and it beat him up pretty good

Loose belts are a bigger problem than most people think. Snug isn't good enough.

Yep,
      ask the guy who crashed his T/D at Brainerd in 2015.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y2wpdJWOXo8

   http://markjrebilas.com/blog/top-dragsters-take-twin-tumbles-at-nhra-brainerd/

Check Mark's photos of Kritzky once he got into the wall. Typical of a lot of e.t. racers he had his belts loose so that he could look over his shoulder and to top that he also had a wide shoulder hoop for the same reason. I see a lot of those sort of cars with 24" wide shoulder hoops and that is just plain stupid unless you are the Jolly Green Giant. I am currently building an altered for a 6' 5" / 300 lb customer and the shoulder hoop is 20" inside. He is a tight fit but if anything ever happens that is a good thing as he has no chance of rattling around like Kritzky who suffered quite extensive injuries in what should have been a "walk away" incident.

Roo
Title: Re: Some basic simple questions
Post by: fuel749 on March 14, 2017, 06:14:41 AM
Wow big air one other thing I see watching your video tighten those shoulder belts more it looks like you can move around quite a bit!
Note taken, thanks Paul!

No problem that is one of my things I notice a friend of mine crashed with his belts a loose and it beat him up pretty good

Loose belts are a bigger problem than most people think. Snug isn't good enough.

Yep,
      ask the guy who crashed his T/D at Brainerd in 2015.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y2wpdJWOXo8

   http://markjrebilas.com/blog/top-dragsters-take-twin-tumbles-at-nhra-brainerd/

Check Mark's photos of Kritzky once he got into the wall. Typical of a lot of e.t. racers he had his belts loose so that he could look over his shoulder and to top that he also had a wide shoulder hoop for the same reason. I see a lot of those sort of cars with 24" wide shoulder hoops and that is just plain stupid unless you are the Jolly Green Giant. I am currently building an altered for a 6' 5" / 300 lb customer and the shoulder hoop is 20" inside. He is a tight fit but if anything ever happens that is a good thing as he has no chance of rattling around like Kritzky who suffered quite extensive injuries in what should have been a "walk away" incident.

Roo

Sportsman racers seem to think that they're much safer since they don't go that fast. What they don't consider is that is a tumbling crash being inside that drivers compartment loosely is just about like throwing an egg in a blender..it'll scramble you up quick. Most of my stuff is in the neighborhood of 21" but I recommend poured or bead seats for everybody.
Title: Re: Some basic simple questions
Post by: dreracecar on March 14, 2017, 08:30:01 AM
All the more reason to have somebody belt you in, there is no way a driver in one of these cars pull the belts tight enough sitting in them unless they are equipt with ty-down ratchets.
Title: Re: Some basic simple questions
Post by: Curly1 on March 14, 2017, 07:48:42 PM
I always tighten my belts real tight and my arm restraints fairly tight but where I can still easily reach everything.  My seat is fairly tight so I will not slap around inside. I do not plan on ever crashing but if I do I want to walk away.

What concerns me and should concern all open wheel front engine drivers is fire. Now it does not happen often but could get real bad very quick.
Title: Re: Some basic simple questions
Post by: noslin on March 14, 2017, 09:17:00 PM
t I recommend poured or bead seats for everybody.

can you please elaborate on the 'bead' seat? 

ty
dean
Title: Re: Some basic simple questions
Post by: George on March 15, 2017, 02:20:00 AM
t I recommend poured or bead seats for everybody.

can you please elaborate on the 'bead' seat? 

ty
dean Here is some info on bead seat kits. https://www.pegasusautoracing.com/productselection.asp?Product=4525
Title: Re: Some basic simple questions
Post by: rooman on March 15, 2017, 05:14:37 AM
t I recommend poured or bead seats for everybody.

can you please elaborate on the 'bead' seat? 

ty
dean

The poured/bead seat deal is a good idea especially if the driver does not fit tight up against the seat. I have a molded carbon fiber seat base that I use in my builds and it is shaped so that it places the driver's butt back far enough that the upright portion of the seat is against his back from the shoulders on down. That is one of my beefs with the Cen-Pen cars. In them the driver usually has to slide his arse so far forward to get his legs over the rear end that his back is unsupported from the shoulder blades to his tail bone. Also if the car is the same width at the bottom as at the shoulder hoop you need something to locate the driver laterally--I don't know too many people whose butt is as wide as their shoulders (although I have seen some Walmartians that are built that way :) )

Roo
Title: Re: Some basic simple questions
Post by: fuel749 on March 15, 2017, 06:01:07 AM
t I recommend poured or bead seats for everybody.

can you please elaborate on the 'bead' seat? 

ty
dean

Look up the one that George links to, they've got a video that shows how to make/install one that should give you an idea what they're all about. You might think you're well supported in your seat until you do a poured seat and see how it supports every crack and crevice between you and the seat. The price is reasonable enough now that there's no reason not to have one....except that a lot of people tend to skimp on safety.
Title: Re: Some basic simple questions
Post by: dusterdave173 on March 15, 2017, 06:21:18 AM
I have a Cenpen and it was awful until I poured a bead bottom--it is fine now
You only need the "small" bead kit--this gives you enough to make two attempts  I was pretty happy with my first try so was able to sell remaining half to recoup some of the $$  it made all the difference in the world--doing it is messy and not guaranteed--it is a big PIA   You can go to circle track shops that make seats and they can do it for you--Here in NC we have several seat makers for Nascar that will do it --overall expect to make a mess first time and a usable one on second try--it takes a lot longer to "cure" than they estimate but you can get out of the car within 45 minutes or so     Just make a seat cushion type bottom don't try and make a Formula One full body deal
You use wifes best bread knife to trim it up when done and I covered mine with the dull black racers tape ( the Real stuff)  coving with Nomex is almost impossible for home done work  so save your $$ on that part  the shape is so odd that no way you can make it look good if not a pro upholstery guy IMO
when it is all just starting you have to waddle down on it like a setting hen on her nest and just keep on mashing down--it is not as easy as just sitting down by any means  You must have a helper  a vacuum pump is really best though we used a shop vac with a piece of small rubber tubing duct taped into hose end
You need help
Title: Re: Some basic simple questions
Post by: fuel749 on March 15, 2017, 06:28:03 AM
I have a Cenpen and it was awful until I poured a bead bottom--it is fine now
You only need the "small" bead kit--this gives you enough to make two attempts  I was pretty happy with my first try so was able to sell remaining half to recoup some of the $$  it made all the difference in the world--doing it is messy and not guaranteed--it is a big PIA   You can go to circle track shops that make seats and they can do it for you--Here in NC we have several seat makers for Nascar that will do it --overall expect to make a mess first time and a usable one on second try--it takes a lot longer to "cure" than they estimate but you can get out of the car within 45 minutes or so     Just make a seat cushion type bottom don't try and make a Formula One full body deal
You use wifes best bread knife to trim it up when done and I covered mine with the dull black racers tape ( the Real stuff)  coving with Nomex is almost impossible for home done work  so save your $$ on that part  the shape is so odd that no way you can make it look good if not a pro upholstery guy IMO
when it is all just starting you have to waddle down on it like a setting hen on her nest and just keep on mashing down--it is not as easy as just sitting down by any means  You must have a helper  a vacuum pump is really best though we used a shop vac with a piece of small rubber tubing duct taped into hose end
You need help

The first time or two are a learning experience for sure. And you will need help. I usually do the whole seat and I've found it much easier if you spread the stuff around in the bag and pull a vacuum on it first like they do in the video.
Title: Re: Some basic simple questions
Post by: dreracecar on March 15, 2017, 08:52:57 AM
It takes about 8 hrs to do it over two days. Their are other 2-part foam kits that take less time but are expensive and working time before it sets is rather quick
Title: Re: Some basic simple questions
Post by: dreracecar on March 15, 2017, 09:00:19 AM
I have a Cenpen and it was awful until I poured a bead bottom--it is fine now
You only need the "small" bead kit--this gives you enough to make two attempts  I was pretty happy with my first try so was able to sell remaining half to recoup some of the $$  it made all the difference in the world--doing it is messy and not guaranteed--it is a big PIA   You can go to circle track shops that make seats and they can do it for you--Here in NC we have several seat makers for Nascar that will do it --overall expect to make a mess first time and a usable one on second try--it takes a lot longer to "cure" than they estimate but you can get out of the car within 45 minutes or so     Just make a seat cushion type bottom don't try and make a Formula One full body deal
You use wifes best bread knife to trim it up when done and I covered mine with the dull black racers tape ( the Real stuff)  coving with Nomex is almost impossible for home done work  so save your $$ on that part  the shape is so odd that no way you can make it look good if not a pro upholstery guy IMO
when it is all just starting you have to waddle down on it like a setting hen on her nest and just keep on mashing down--it is not as easy as just sitting down by any means  You must have a helper  a vacuum pump is really best though we used a shop vac with a piece of small rubber tubing duct taped into hose end
You need help

 The GARVIN motorsports kit (386-788-8963) comes with everything needed, except the shop vac and labor. and highly recommend it. The covering sent with the kit is a knitted Carbon X material and easily conforms to the foam with the spray glue provided
Title: Re: Some basic simple questions
Post by: noslin on March 15, 2017, 05:59:57 PM
thanks all, ill get one.  i was wanting to do this in my door car as in the kirkey seat your kind of swimming in there.  also, have seen some bad wrecks while watching pdra and other door car races via the net and the announcers and racers say its an important part of the safety program for the support it provides in an accident.

ill get one in the FED, was just want to get the fed done first and running which hopefully will be by sept. i have a carbon seat, not sure manuf though.
dean
Title: Re: Some basic simple questions
Post by: JrFuel Hayden on March 19, 2017, 02:16:25 AM
We ALWAYS have a crew member hook-up and tighten the belts, we don't want our driver hurt !

Jon
Title: Re: Some basic simple questions
Post by: Curly1 on April 04, 2017, 10:01:38 AM
On this car I am going to front half it. Right now it is 225 inches and thinking of cutting it to 205? That would make it much easier to load in my current trailer.  What are your thoughts on that? Pros and Cons?
Title: Re: Some basic simple questions
Post by: Curly1 on April 04, 2017, 12:01:29 PM
(http://i413.photobucket.com/albums/pp217/airetexbruce/received_1478582282174206_zpslrvbhnnq.jpeg) (http://s413.photobucket.com/user/airetexbruce/media/received_1478582282174206_zpslrvbhnnq.jpeg.html)
I think it will look very good even a few inches shorter. This is before the accident.
Title: Re: Some basic simple questions
Post by: dusterdave173 on April 04, 2017, 01:07:21 PM
200 is max in a 24 ft trailer--and IMO 200 is plenty long enough--the longer cars do not look nostalgia at all
Title: Re: Some basic simple questions
Post by: Oldschool on April 04, 2017, 05:12:13 PM
Thanks for all of the great tips. I run an Altered 5.0 in NE2 and have been fairly successful but the dragster is a whole new animal. My Altered is a four link and I learned how to make it work. The dragster of course is hard tail and I know nothing about how to tune that.. Really looking forward to this and appreciate your help and suggestions. This dragster has been a very good working car so I should be okay or at least have a good starting point.

I went from an Altered to a FED and the difference I found is the engine in your face and these big tires on each side. Like a rocket ship 😎,but does go straight.
Title: Re: Some basic simple questions
Post by: rooman on April 05, 2017, 04:49:50 AM
200 is max in a 24 ft trailer--and IMO 200 is plenty long enough--the longer cars do not look nostalgia at all

My Don Long car was built in 1969 and it is 225". Kinda looks nostalgic (especially with the Tom Hanna body and Tony Nancy upholstery)

What actually kills the nostalgia vibe is a six point cage and a "gutter machine" body--sorry Curly1 :)

Here is my car as I purchased it
(http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t18/aussierooman/SoapySales026.jpg)

And here is a new 225" car--the Horan car that I built and drove in 2010
(http://i156.photobucket.com/albums/t18/aussierooman/IMG_5361.jpg)

Roo
Title: Re: Some basic simple questions
Post by: Curly1 on April 05, 2017, 07:24:42 AM
The look I want is like a newer top fueled but with front engine. A "Newstalgia" look.
Title: Re: Some basic simple questions
Post by: Supercat on April 05, 2017, 11:15:28 AM
Roo here is the car in color, during my license runs.
Also shots of our 5pt. (6.0 cert) car.
Title: Re: Some basic simple questions
Post by: Supercat on April 05, 2017, 11:16:39 AM
Mine
Title: Re: Some basic simple questions
Post by: masracingtd1167 on April 05, 2017, 11:26:22 AM
Curly That's a great looking car and 200 inches should be just fine ! I had mine built a little shorter for the same reason ! I also had mine built with a six point cage to make it easier to get my old butt in and out of the car !
Title: Re: Some basic simple questions
Post by: Curly1 on April 27, 2018, 08:05:09 PM
Alright for an update. I am picking up the dragster tomorrow and will post some pictures. I will be using the motor and transmission out of my altered and car should run 4.90.  When I pick it up going to put it in paint booth and strip it down to bare chassis, sand it and paint it then it goes to a friend to wire it all up. Will be using RPM digital dash and data logger. After it is wired then install motor and transission, put out any little fires and hope to run it at June 24 race. Have a nice set of Weld Alumistar fronts with new Goodyears and for the rear I have a new set of MT 15 x 15 wheels with MT 3074 tires. 4.30 rear gear. Everything from feet forward is new and all body panels are new. I had them make quite a few changes from original so it is more user friendly and now has room for full dash for switches etc. This car looks different than all others out there and has a newer top fuel style to it while keeping the Front engine nostalgia look.
Title: Re: Some basic simple questions
Post by: MikenMpls on April 28, 2018, 06:26:01 AM
can't wait to see this car!
Title: Re: Some basic simple questions
Post by: Curly1 on May 03, 2018, 09:46:01 AM
I got the car, have painted the frame and starting on putting it all together. I am having trouble posting pictures. Maybe I can send someone some pictures to post?
Title: Re: Some basic simple questions
Post by: Curly1 on May 07, 2018, 07:19:21 PM
I have two more questions.

1. I have a hardtail with coupler yoke. Are you guys bolting tail shaft solid to chassis?

2. How do you post pictures here?
Title: Re: Some basic simple questions
Post by: Curly1 on May 07, 2018, 07:55:23 PM
https://imgur.com/8YZ5Ofb
Title: Re: Some basic simple questions
Post by: Curly1 on May 07, 2018, 07:56:21 PM
https://imgur.com/swKxebq
Title: Re: Some basic simple questions
Post by: Curly1 on May 07, 2018, 07:56:58 PM
https://i.imgur.com/QVJA5fr.jpg
Title: Re: Some basic simple questions
Post by: Curly1 on May 07, 2018, 07:57:27 PM
https://i.imgur.com/ggypCyL.jpg
Title: Re: Some basic simple questions
Post by: Curly1 on May 07, 2018, 07:57:54 PM
https://i.imgur.com/Qmnotp7.jpg
Title: Re: Some basic simple questions
Post by: Curly1 on May 07, 2018, 07:58:29 PM
https://i.imgur.com/ebndhv1.jpg
Title: Re: Some basic simple questions
Post by: Curly1 on May 07, 2018, 08:00:53 PM
https://i.imgur.com/H4dcbXT.jpg
Title: Re: Some basic simple questions
Post by: Curly1 on May 07, 2018, 08:05:08 PM
https://imgur.com/IBqzTCN
Title: Re: Some basic simple questions
Post by: Curly1 on May 07, 2018, 08:05:34 PM
https://imgur.com/E991Clo
Title: Re: Some basic simple questions
Post by: Roger on May 07, 2018, 08:36:42 PM
Looking good:)
Title: Re: Some basic simple questions
Post by: Curly1 on May 08, 2018, 05:16:59 AM
Thank you Sir, I have so much work to do from here. On a hard tail like this with yoke type coupler are you bolting transmission tailshaft to chassis?
Title: Re: Some basic simple questions
Post by: Roger on May 08, 2018, 10:07:43 AM
I've owned & raced 3 feds in the past along with my current altered and none of them had a rear trans mount. They all had a front motor plate and block plate for support and all worked fine. My view is that having 3 attachment points, front and block plate and rear mount, puts more stress on the trans if there is any frame flex when power is applied. At that point, the aluminum trans case would be the weak link and the first to fracture. Wouldn't want that happening down between my feet and legs:)
Title: Re: Some basic simple questions
Post by: hemidakota on May 08, 2018, 10:14:01 AM
Very cool fed... When we stopped bolting tail shaft to chassis, we stopped wiping out tail shaft bushings and stopped breaking stock cases fwiw.
Title: Re: Some basic simple questions
Post by: H.G. Wells on May 08, 2018, 12:56:15 PM
Bruce, as the others have said do not mount the trans tail. Just let it float.
Glad to see you bring that one back, hope to join you guys soon. There are a bunch of new cars coming together for the SHRA.
Title: Re: Some basic simple questions
Post by: Curly1 on May 08, 2018, 08:06:41 PM
https://imgur.com/zX4OYhB

Got the motor in today, what a pain in the tail. I have the Iron Eagle block which does not have the standard oil filter location, it only has the remote filter and the outlet fitting was hitting hard on the steering shaft. I was able to get a 45 degree fitting and make it work but it was close. This dragster is real narrow and so my alternator and vacuum pump will not work on it. Not sure what I am going to do there yet.
Title: Re: Some basic simple questions
Post by: Curly1 on July 12, 2018, 06:14:34 PM
Almost ready to test this weekend. https://i.imgur.com/ny1tlWs.jpg
Title: Re: Some basic simple questions
Post by: Paul New on July 12, 2018, 06:17:13 PM
Looking good have fun!
Title: Re: Some basic simple questions
Post by: Curly1 on July 12, 2018, 06:18:01 PM
https://i.imgur.com/eALwnaZ.jpg
Title: Re: Some basic simple questions
Post by: Curly1 on August 05, 2018, 07:59:44 AM
https://i.imgur.com/X7iiCWy.jpg
Title: Re: Some basic simple questions
Post by: JrFuel Hayden on August 21, 2018, 10:50:35 PM
Curly, if you are running the side wings to help with down force down track, because it's getting loose and moving around, you might want to think about running zoomies, because they will add down force, with-out adding more areo drag, like the wings do. That is unless you are trying to slow the car down to run brakets.
And it will look more nostalgic, and zoomies are lighter than the collector pipes, too.

Jon
Title: Re: Some basic simple questions
Post by: gregm784 on August 22, 2018, 09:14:21 AM
I run HUGE canards on my car (the team likes the look so we keep them), and i was still spinning down track last weekend.  I honestly do not believe 175-180mph creates enough pressure on them to make a noticable difference. 

My little small block isn't making snot down track, and for it to spin is amazing (hot and slick is my guess)
Title: Re: Some basic simple questions
Post by: Curly1 on August 22, 2018, 09:58:24 AM
On my altered the canard wings did nothing and the car felt loose on top end. You could feel it getting up on the tire over 150. When I put the wing on it the faster you go the smoother and more stable it was.  I do not have any good passes on dragster Yet.
Title: Re: Some basic simple questions
Post by: Curly1 on August 22, 2018, 10:01:41 AM
I hate zoomies and will only use them as a last resort. Blows fuel in your face, fumes gag you and they are loud as xxxx.
Title: Re: Some basic simple questions
Post by: opa1 on August 22, 2018, 10:23:05 AM
Blows fuel in your face, fumes gag you and they are loud as xxxx.

I thought this was the best part about zoomies. :)
Title: Re: Some basic simple questions
Post by: gregm784 on August 22, 2018, 12:41:19 PM
I hate zoomies and will only use them as a last resort. Blows fuel in your face, fumes gag you and they are loud as xxxx.

I don't think i've ever smelled my own exhaust. I get a wiff of others sometimes (some run nitro, and i can smell it).  I never get fuel in my face.

Loud? well, yea,  a bit.  2.125 zoomies on a blown small block tends to make a little racket.
Title: Re: Some basic simple questions
Post by: wideopen231 on August 22, 2018, 02:30:10 PM
Heck still trying to get them louder. I have my rep as loudest car at track to uphold.LOL Probably does not matter to OP but some nostalgia stuff is zoomies only.Just saying.
Title: Re: Some basic simple questions
Post by: glofria on August 22, 2018, 03:06:22 PM
I hate zoomies and will only use them as a last resort. Blows fuel in your face, fumes gag you and they are loud as xxxx.

You will need to tilt them out away from the car.  ;)
Title: Re: Some basic simple questions
Post by: Curly1 on August 27, 2018, 04:59:12 AM
I do not think the canards will do anything as far as performance I put them on there because I like the look. I want it to look like a more modern nostalgia car. And as long as I own the car it will never have zoomies.
Title: Re: Some basic simple questions
Post by: Curly1 on September 15, 2018, 07:03:25 PM
Okay I have got a few hits on the car now and a few issues. First good hit ran a 5.11 and data logger was showing bounce, spin, bounce spin bounce spin. I had 6.8 lbs of air which was what worked best on my altered with same size and brand of tire. Had a problem at the track so had to load up fix the issues and try again. Fix the issues and a few weeks later try again. Okay last night I lowered air pressure to 5.8 and it ran a 4.97 off the trailer. Logger showed it hit and then spun a little and took off but no more bouncing after that. I figured it was heading in right direction so I lowered the air pressure to 5.4 and tried to make another hit. This time it launched hard, spun a little and then got loose and out of groove. It felt like the tires were just way too low. Was there by myself and with out any video hard to tell exactly what was going on with it. Also I had the wheelie bar up fairly high and it hit the bar but it did not feel like it pulled the fronts up that high?

Any thoughts or suggestions?
Title: Re: Some basic simple questions
Post by: Curly1 on September 22, 2018, 04:42:23 PM
At the hit the rear is bouncing and spinning. Lowering air pressure helped a little but did not resolve the issue.  Any ideas?
Title: Re: Some basic simple questions
Post by: Curly1 on September 22, 2018, 05:58:37 PM
A little more information. The car weighs 1730 with me in it and has 1341 of that weight on rear tires. The tires are MT 3074 (14x32).
Title: Re: Some basic simple questions
Post by: wideopen231 on September 23, 2018, 08:38:14 AM
hurry up and figure it out.Weight is almost same as mine and have same tire. Heck at rate I am getting this thing to track you have plenty of time.CMAO
Title: Re: Some basic simple questions
Post by: JrFuel Hayden on September 23, 2018, 03:19:08 PM
Curly, you said you have a data computer, what driveshaft speed is the highest when your spinning the tires before it hooks up ?
What height do you set your WB, and is that with you in the car, and what tire pressure, because the tires will squat when you get in the car and that will lower your WB.
Is your WB stiff and what length ? if your WB is too stiff when your front starts to come up it will hit hard and unload the slicks, causing spin, at least try adding another 20 on the nose.
I'm not surprised you might be getting bounce because of the 6.8 lb of pressure, which explains your experince of running the lower pressure.
You could also have too much tire, it may have worked good on your other car, but your 14x32 could be dead hooking, and pulling your engine down below your HP range and much harder to get "up on the tire" because of less HP. Are your M/T a soft compound tire, also makes it too easy to dead hook.
My JrFuel car at 1435 lbs with driver, gets to 2300-2500 rpm drive shaft speed about .3 into run before it hooks up and my RacePak curve shows a "J" hook where it is spinning to 2300, the hooks up and is confirmed by my "G" meter graph. We run mostly 31x12x15 Goodyear that are very light weight [ less rotaing weight] at 22.6 lbs per unmounted tire. Hayden wheels special orders them.
You have found what I have found , lower tire pressure will increase tire speed, and when I'm looking for more traction [ less tire speed] I increase tire pressure on my 12" tires. i run between 5 3/4 to 6 1/2 pressure. I launch at 6200-6600 rpm to again "get up on the tire"  and keep it spinning so it does not pull the motor down. We run 1.01 to 1.05 sixty foot times, and allot of 7.0's at 185-189 mph. on injected alky with an all iron 399 ci SBC.
One thing you might want to check is lift the front-end up, while you are in the drivers seat , to see where it hits your WB. You may already be on the bar. I put chalk on the WB wheel and check what kind of tracks it leaves, most of the time on my car it leave about one to 1.5 foot track, then leaves another short one, telling me it's hitting the WB then spinning some and if it does not leave a 3'rd track, means it's "up on the tire" after that.
I hope this info helps, and you can call me anytime 805-444-4489 on my cell.
Jon
Title: Re: Some basic simple questions
Post by: Frontenginedragsters on September 23, 2018, 05:46:29 PM
Jon:
 Thanks for posting this information.
It's helpful to more people than just the guy asking the question.
Matt Shaff
Title: Re: Some basic simple questions
Post by: Curly1 on September 24, 2018, 06:03:46 PM
I am going from memory here but right at the hit the driveshaft RPM spikes up to 1800 and then dropped to 1400 RPM from there it climbs as speed goes up. My altered never did that. It would go up then maybe flatten out for just a split second and then start climbing again.
Title: Re: Some basic simple questions
Post by: Curly1 on September 26, 2018, 01:16:38 PM
Okay, I looked at the data logger. At .34 into the run driveshaft RPM was 1859 and at .45 in the run it had dropped to 1459. My altered never slipped any.
Title: Re: Some basic simple questions
Post by: rooman on September 26, 2018, 01:40:59 PM
Sounds like it is dead hooking if it pulls the driveshaft speed down that much.

Roo
Title: Re: Some basic simple questions
Post by: Curly1 on September 26, 2018, 07:34:31 PM
This is data logger of good run in my altered earlier this year. Note the driveshaft RPM.
https://imgur.com/USCFQjX
Title: Re: Some basic simple questions
Post by: Curly1 on September 26, 2018, 07:36:29 PM
Now here is one of the first runs on dragster with same air pressure 6.8. I think it was bouncing and spinning.
https://imgur.com/OgapcsO
Title: Re: Some basic simple questions
Post by: Curly1 on September 26, 2018, 07:42:48 PM
I thought the car was bouncing and spinning on the other run so I dropped the air pressure to 5.8 and it appears that it had one little bounce and spin.  I am going to be racing on Saturday and we should be able to get some video to hopefully verify what is going and learn which way to go from there. So any thoughts or help here is appreciated.  I do not think it is dead hooking here.
https://imgur.com/QEcIQXx
Title: Re: Some basic simple questions
Post by: Roger on September 28, 2018, 11:43:06 AM
Have you tried raising the pressure? Every car will react differently depending on the combination and while lowering the pressure might help increase tire speed and minimize dead hooking, raising the pressure will also result in increased tire seed and minimize dead hook. Might be worth a try.
Title: Re: Some basic simple questions
Post by: Curly1 on September 28, 2018, 04:37:16 PM
I have not tried raising air pressure but I started at 6.8 and when I lowered it to 5.8 it was better so I think it was heading in the right direction. I should be able to get some video tomorrow and that may give me some idea of what to do. Right now I am not happy with the performance. I went to the dragster because I thought it would be much more forgiving and faster than the altered. So far it is not and the altered was much easier to load and unload and more fun to drive to.
Title: Re: Some basic simple questions
Post by: Curly1 on October 02, 2018, 05:12:12 PM
Second race in and it was good for Number 1 Qualifier and a runner up finish but it was not with out some issues and drama.  Still spinning at the hit too much and bouncing in the shut down.  My plan next time is to raise wheelie bar and tire pressure a little more. I may experiment with raising launch RPM to hit the tires harder and keep the chassis loaded. Right now I am just not sure what is the best way to get this thing handling better and down the track every time and with out drama.
The spin is about .3 into the run and drive shaft RPM spikes up to 1800 RPM and then drops to 1400 and from there it climbs normally and as speed increases.
When I built it I thought the full size battery up in the very nose would help performance, but now I am thinking it is too much up front and may be limiting weight transfer on the launch? Car weighs 1730 and has 389 on the front. I could save 35 Lbs by going to a Lithium battery up front if I have to. What does have to happen is to get this thing working where I do not have any aborted runs unless track is just not there.

I am looking for any help and suggestions here.
Title: Re: Some basic simple questions
Post by: wideopen231 on October 02, 2018, 05:34:10 PM
why spend money on lithium.Just remount battery back at engine.If I remember you had issue with spinning motor faster and 12' less wire should help that although you seem to have corrected it>again if I am thinking about your deal and not someone else's. Not that all cars are same and all rules fit every car. Park's told me I needed 300# on front. I am sure the guys with more FED experience will correct me if wrong.  I don't really believe that is issue since most of the time keeping front end down is more of issue. IMO do one or other.Wheelie bar or move weight,not both. Old rule never do two things at same time,if it works.Which one was it. I would put jack under front end pickup till bar hits good and adjust from there. I am firm believer in leaving hard so my vote for the 1/2 cent its worth is for more rpm first then others.
Title: Re: Some basic simple questions
Post by: wideopen231 on October 02, 2018, 05:35:52 PM
whats #1 q = et________/MPH________
Title: Re: Some basic simple questions
Post by: Curly1 on October 03, 2018, 04:57:29 AM
I am going to try raising tire pressure, launch RPM and wheelie bar first. I am not going to Lithiium battery unless I have to and get video that confirms what it is doing. Right now I just am not sure what it is doing or how to fix it.
Title: Re: Some basic simple questions
Post by: AWAG on October 03, 2018, 08:16:35 AM
Why does everyone say to put a jack under the front end to see how high it is when the wheelie bar hits? The front end gets picked up by the pinion trying to climb ring gear. So wouldn't the front of the motor be your leverage point? Shouldn't you put the jack there so you can take into account the chassis flex? I had an old fed that was a late 60's 186" car. When I put a wheelie bar on it I first set it at 3". That car wouldn't do anything but sit there on that starting line and just spin. Front tires never raised a bit.  What was happening was with that narrow chassis it had a lot of flex in it. Once I put 5" under the wheel it started behaving. This was only with a mild sbc
Title: Re: Some basic simple questions
Post by: wideopen231 on October 03, 2018, 09:18:03 AM
 Not sure why everyone does. I do for two reasons. First I have slip joint deal and lifting at middle would give you 2" lift before front end moved any.if loose. Second my floor jack will not fit under middle w/o raising front or rear some.LOL
Title: Re: Some basic simple questions
Post by: Curly1 on October 05, 2018, 07:31:00 AM
I have talked to several people and right now I am thinking the problem is not enough power / too heavy front end. The car is not carrying front wheels so it does not transfer weight to rear wheels like it should. (I think) really hard to tell but with next race coming up in one week and limited what I can do going to raise wheelie bar up, tire pressure up, launch rpm up and possibly try to add a little weight to rear.  If that helps I will make more changes in the off season.