FrontEngineDragsters.Org Forum
Drag Racing Discussions => Front Engine Dragsters => Topic started by: wideopen231 on July 11, 2013, 03:20:02 PM
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Anyone know of spec for wing on FED. I looked thru heritage series rules on NHRA site found nothing,does not mean I did not overlook it. Heck happens all the time with me. I know what I want.Cheaper air foil tubing would be great.Man 14 bucks a foot was what i use to pay though that was high.Found 2 site in mid 20's price wise.Thats about 140 per side.
Want to build it mounted lower on chassis and leaned back some with very low attack angle. I did mock up with cheap tubing and it lokks bada-- IMO and since its my car that overrides all others.If going to build I would rather make it legal if possible.
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Rear wings are tabo on FED's = side canards only. Front wing is limited as per rules.
Van
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SO Van are you trying to talk me out of wing or into it? Going against the grain(except in my wood projects) as pretty much always been my way. 8)
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I don't have anything against a rear wing on a FED, just answered your question. I just built and installed one on my car, on the front. If you do a rear wing and want to run a heritage race, i would think that you could just remove it.
Van
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X2, just set it up so the struts are pinned in and just remove the pins to remove the wing
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Been thinking on setting it up so that the top where it covers the roll cage has two air vents .Then running the rods that go from front of strut to the chassis thru them,if not for brain fart I would know the name of it.
Next trick will be getting the main strut thru lower section of body. Maybe above lower wheelie bar mounts.Im not crazy about fastening to top of cage. Trying to look at safety also in case of. Maybe after body work is mounted I will get some brain storm for mounting it.
Yea the traditionalist are going to hate me. Oh well. To me racing is look like buildimg custom Harley do what you like. Just have few rules with racecar and non with Harley.Some will think awsome some will think POS. Plus theme is NEWSTALGIA. 4 bolts and no wing.
Getting the drawing board out right after coffee.
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Just playing with idea of how to mount wing.
(http://i1081.photobucket.com/albums/j350/wideopen231/001-2.jpg) (http://s1081.photobucket.com/user/wideopen231/media/001-2.jpg.html)
The angles are working for me but still figuring on how to get chute body to work with it. In rendering I posted under give me your opion post.It was mounter to top of cage,not crazy about that incase driver gets stupid and flips it over or something of that nature.
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A rear wing on a FED of any real downforce MUST be mounted in front of the rear axle, mid way between motor plate and rear axle would be best. With wing behind the axle you would need a major amount of wing downforce at the front axle to counter the cantilever effect. If you mount it behind you, I suggest you keep it small & at a somewhat neutral angle.
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Are you serious ? A wing behind the driver on a FED?
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Really not that bad of an idea . I would like to hear what Roo's thought's would be about this . I don't think it would have that much of an effect on the front of the car but I do think it would make the car more stable at speed.
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I don't know, but I don't think you ever want to take weight of the front and with the wing in back of the rear wheels it does not seem the right thing to do?
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I figure the front canards will off set the wing.Plus remember wing angle effect amount of down force.A well designe wing can be run at negative angle and still provide down force.I think the key is how much down force you have. With my motor being 51" out I think it will be benifical.If not It only cost me the price of the airfoil tubing and thats enough. I have templet I got from wing off my TA/D and it came from fellow I met in Gainsville who worked for this little company NASA you may have heard of it.
I spent cpl hours talking with him and got ton of info.Plus he was buuilding wings for guys like Jay Payne at the time.I'm going to reduce the size some since this car is nowhere near 3000 hp,lucky if getting much pass 1000 before nitrous.
The more I play with this setup thye more I like it.Kind of ties the nostalgia to the new. If not using name Starr Rider I will use the Newstalgia which was idea from start of wanting a modernized FED when I drew first sketchs. Man that issue of Drag Racer that had blue and yellow Jr fueler I think little huslter has cost me lot more then cover price.
Hey Glen Im sure few thought the first guy to put a blower on dagster engine was crazy too.
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YUP them NASA guys got's those Aliens that they been keepn alive for years, (area 51) making them tell all kinds of space secrets. Your car is gunna fly. ;D
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looks like 4 aliens escaped and are living in washington at 1600 pennsylvania ave. Suppose to fly thats why it has parachute.
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with battery 35 lbs. fuel tanke 4.5 gallon 36 lbs full fire bottle 5 lbs and nitrous bottle 18-23 lbs and all mounted as far foward as possible.Then Im sitting more foward with the high chair postion and rear end is almost tucked under my rear and the motor being 51" out I think there is lot more than normal weight on front. I will be weighing it before hitting the track to check how much front and rear weight.
Starting with 480 sq in of wing and at -2 degrees and move up till I get to +4* or I feel it needs to be moved back. Sheets for this wing design show 163 lbs down force at 200 mph.Plus 90% of runs will be 1/8 and only 150 to 160 mph which is around 104 lbs down force.Plus front canards have to provide some down force.
Worst case I pull wing and mount the canrds in front of rear wheels or better yet the aerodynamic effects I have designed that also add down force.
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I like the innovation of it. Can't wait to see the final product.
Ken
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Most of the handling problems with my car are the rear tend's to walk around on the top end . The 12 inch tires don't help either . I think if you don't have it too far back it should be ok. NHRA makes all gas dragsters and econo dragsters run a rear wing . It has helped those cars a lot . Before the wing rule a lot of those cars were crashing especially the B/ED cars very light and small tires
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Right now the setup is 29" from front edge of wing to back of cage and its 26" above cage. I can come foward I could not go higher if wanted to according to rules for wing on alky dragster and probably fuel.Although no ru;e for having oner on FED I figure if I build to spec I have better chance of getting to run it at event.If not allowe its 4 3/8 bolts to remove it. wing will be 40"x 12 to 14" the cord width is 2",I have a pattern thats 1.5" thick which I like but not sure how much down force it would have with shorter bottom.Since down force comes from the air seperating at front and the bottom has to move faster to rejoin the air on to suface at rear of wing.It would seem a shorter bottom surface would have less downforce,but also less drag.
Struts seem to be little over 60" and 15 -3/8 spread since it was common on lot of aftermarket wings.Only need about 16' of airfoil and at prices Ive been getting that 400 bucks ,so I will set everything up but actual wing on car for run will be one of the last items done. Lots of things more pushing.Building everything except struts and will have mounts ready. So far coost will be the aluminum skin have rest of it here. Yea might seem stupid to be working on it,but have to get anything I can done and with little to no cost right now.The stuff that cost gets moved down on list.
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you work like I do on my car, the stuff I can't make my self is normally pricey so I figure I can get it later, and if I'm building stuff for the car,, I'm still makeing headway on it, Not having a bunch of money to toss at this car, has made me learn how to do alot of things to keep moving, Tim Jones
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idea od what it will look like with body.Man if you could weld this poster board stuff.Cheap and lite weight.Might seem stupid but Im not Roo Man I have to make patterns from cardboard or in this case poster board then I have idea what it will take sheetmetal wise.
(http://i1081.photobucket.com/albums/j350/wideopen231/002-3.jpg) (http://s1081.photobucket.com/user/wideopen231/media/002-3.jpg.html)
(http://i1081.photobucket.com/albums/j350/wideopen231/001-3.jpg) (http://s1081.photobucket.com/user/wideopen231/media/001-3.jpg.html)
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yea Tim anything I get done is progress no matter how small or big. It takes a idiot to try building a racecar when he has no money,ask me how I know this.
Man this was alot easier when we where making money.It keeps me busy and some what out of trouble.
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idea od what it will look like with body.Man if you could weld this poster board stuff.Cheap and lite weight.Might seem stupid but Im not Roo Man I have to make patterns from cardboard or in this case poster board then I have idea what it will take sheetmetal wise.
(http://i1081.photobucket.com/albums/j350/wideopen231/002-3.jpg) (http://s1081.photobucket.com/user/wideopen231/media/002-3.jpg.html)
(http://i1081.photobucket.com/albums/j350/wideopen231/001-3.jpg) (http://s1081.photobucket.com/user/wideopen231/media/001-3.jpg.html)
For bodies like that I make templates too. LOL
On the subject of the wing itself it should not be too hard to figure out the loading dynamics. If the wing makes 163 lbs of downforce as you suggest and the center of pressure is 4 feet behind the rear axle centerline you can figure out how much ffront downforce/static weight that you need to counteract the rear wing loading and keep the front end on the ground. The drag factor also enters the equation with the wing that high above the rear axle centerline.
Roo
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yea wing is back more than planned in the above pics. Will have to tighten up back part some so I pull it foward good amount.would like to stay around 30" back.
Since car has to be pulled out to work on rear section and its getting ready to rain again(about everyday lately) beginning to think I live in Seattle washington. No work today on this so back to nose piece and air scoop for tank. First scoop looks to be to big opening so back to drawing board.
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Only an idiot would build a race car with no money!! Hey that's me! Lots of people that know me ask how can you build a race car on what you make? I tell them ,well I don't Drink anymore, don't smoke, don't do drugs, and when you guys are going out to eat at lunch time I'm in the shop building stuff I need for the car, while eating a baloney sandwich and when your out to eat dinner or out blowing money on some crap you proablly don't need, I'm at home working on the car, eating frozen pizzas or more baloney sandwichs,, so if you want something enough you'll adjust your life style to get what you want or you'll just sit around wishing you had something, Tim Jones BTW all the alum work on my car started as cardboard patterns
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Yea Tim card board and poster board lot cheaper than aluminum.
I still have beer in frig and I will eat out once a month or so.Mainly for wife since she works her butt off.I don't eat lunch out most days.I cut a lot of corners.99% of the meat eaten in this house comes from dear hunting.Grow a garden and preserve lots,this year not so much because rain 21 days last month and this month not much better.
Now if I could cut my milk habbit I would have another 100 bucks a month,about gallon a day.Hey I dropped the Monster drinks and thats about 120 a month Im not spending.
Biggest expence here has been dogd latley.had one die 6-10 and cost was around 1800 ttrying to keep her going.The other one now has to have teeth cleaned another 450 this month.This is one thing I will not cheat for my racing.My babies come before me desires or need for speed.
So I understand brother.
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Back to wing.
anyone know of formula for figuring how much leverage wing will have with leverage from sitting behind rear axle. I will post question on speed talk also,nothing but engineers and they live for stuff like that.Thought maybe someone here might know also.
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Any info on the wing specs , looked around on the net all the info was Top fuel wing down force specs, numbers wouldn't be even close to what your doing,, you might call murph Mckinny or someone like that,,Tim Jones
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I have spec for TA/D wing. From what i found there is no spec for FED w/wing.Most nostalgia does not allow one period. So detachable with some dzus inserts to fill open hole when removed it is. Plus its not pushing and the cost of the streamline tubing means it will be added after cars done and the bugs worked out. That will also allow me to know what effect it has if any performance wise.
99% of my runs around here will be 1/8 and it will be hauling if I can bust 160 mph.I figure motor pretty close to 1000 hp and weight hopefully in 1600 on the line,ok hope less but error on highside will not disappoint me. Not dead nuts prefect but some number running on drag simulator sayd I should be able to get close to 155 mph in the mid 4.40s which is quiker than I have been aiming for.
According tob Bill its big issue till closer to 195 to 200 mph range.
Building wing because well have the materials here and almost no cost.It will be here when I'm ready for it. Been working on wing then going over to fiberglass on nose piece. Two projects keeps it interesting.Down side time away from one gives me time to think and that can be dangerous and costly.
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How could anyone argue Heritage Series rules over a wing, if it was similar to Garlits big wing on his 1963 Winternationals winning Swamp Rat 5? That is heritage and history. The wing was mounted over the engine. Check with Big at the museum. I'm sure he'd share the mounting points with you.
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yea that would help with driving the finishline enough stuff to look around now.
Admit it would be nostalgic.
Another point is you need at least 1/2 the span of wing away from anything to get best air around wing. that would put wing 24" above injector.