FrontEngineDragsters.Org Forum
Drag Racing Discussions => Front Engine Dragsters => Topic started by: wideopen231 on January 29, 2022, 07:28:40 AM
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Yea I know you can't win bracket racing a FED, only heard it few thousand times. Why not? If any car runs the number and the driver hits tree it can win a bracket racing.Is that not the whole basis of bracket racing? (this can work for you, under estimated)
Ok disclaimer done. Lets talk bracket racing with a fed.
One thing obvious or should be. The view of the race is totally different than in door car or RED. If you can't see the opponent he is way back. Seeing wheel to wheel is harder because they are way out there. Only way I see is a spot on there car when staged and use it.
Pedaling a fed especailly with zoomies represnt different deals. One if you run Zoomies I promise you they will know if you are pedaling. That can work two ways.It can hurt you and it can help if using it to your advantage. Second Feds have more tendency to get bouncy if whomp whomping it. IMO brake is best way and then it probably needs to be soft.The reason I am adding a drag brake using brake handle and small caliper.
The number one reason I was told will not work. Consistency. Feds are notorist for making a stupid run more times than most. Mainly based on older cars with motor bolted to reand(slight exaggeration) and most the weight on rearend meaning very little on front wheels. I think key here is balance of weight and maybe softer leaves than would be for maximum performance. Was told buy a know it all in Kansas that 300 lb
minimum on the front end is required for good driveability. Who am I to question the man?
Running a fed by yourself present lots of things that you will need to be ready for. Buckling up is harder,then so is just getting into the seat.LOL Loading and unloading is a job.Same for all cars but more so with FED.
So guys who mainly bracket race a fed lets here your thoughts, strategy and or experiences.
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I very much look forward to the replies since I plan to bracket race the FED I'm building now.
Partially because I'm just getting into drag racing after years of other car related stuff, and partially because I'm a tight wad, I plan to keep the engine build really mild. Seems to me a thoroughbred of a race engine would be more difficult to reign-in to run consistently. Same with converter and gears. Why make the car faster for the purpose of being faster when it's all about repeatability? Maybe I'm just hopeful and naive but it would seem to me a wild a$$ car would be more difficult to run consistent than a mild, pedal-to-the-metal car. My hope is for a 7-ish second 1/8th mile car....and to enjoy doing it.
Lynn
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Hey I kept it mild only about 960 to 1000 hp and no blower on it. LOL Now as for running some nitro at times, that is different story. Hey nitro is very consistent. Runs at better AFR. Less effected by weather. Consistently cost more. LOL
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I soften the max tune and run 7.80 to 7.81 at 179 -181.
Car has run a best NA 7.21 at 192mph.
462 iron Buick block with aluminium head set up by Al Dixon injected alky. 1.01 60 ft
I have won and run as runner up many times I even went to the finals in an open class 10.99 and quicker 11 rounds to get to the finals. It is possible very possible you just need to know your car.
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You can Bracket race a FED and they can be consistent in fact I set up my FED so I could bracket race if I wanted to. I have a good cooling system with fans and good transmission coolers. Still the FED is not as easy to load, unload, drive around the pits, get in and out of, get suited up and in the end it is rather a pain to bracket race. That takes a lot of fun out of it. Also some tracks will not let you burn out past the line in a bracket race and that is rather a pain to get a good burn out and get lined up right. That to can be done but just another little inconvenience.
For weight on the front end my car was pulling to the left and scrubbing rubber on right side of tires. Added some weight on the nose and it goes nice and straight. There probably was not 10 Lbs of weight on the nose when it was full throttle before. With a FED it is a balance deal and also if your reaction times ever seem out of line add a bunch of weight up front. They are bad about popping front tires out of beams, setting down then the front tires may come up slowly and set down soft. It is that quick pop up the ruins your reaction times.
As for not being able to turn around to see your opponent behind you, who cares? You are going to be faster car 99% of the time any way. You will be chasing them. I think in the last 10 years and hundreds of passes only 2 times I remember other car was faster and it was like .02 which is basically heads up.
I do think you need to get a bunch of passes on the car to work out the issues and if that is bracket racing go do it. It is a FED you WILL have issues to deal with.
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When I scaled my car, mostly because I am weight nut. It was 1740 with 328 on front/Front left was 6 lbs heavier than right.Might be the front canard that has weight in it.LOL Yea canards are not needed,but they look cool. I am hoping having the engine 50" out helps with front end lifting out of lights. I do Have a slip joint about 2' behind axle that if loosened should help here also, will see if needed. So far I do not seem to have issue here,probaly will now that I said that. LOL
Cooling system for engi ne just going to have to work with what I have and that is forced air in pits. Air forced thru engine on left VC and out right VC ,while also pushing air around TQ converter thru secondary pipe. Running full belly pan instead of diaper to help. Hard to pump anything thru a solid block. I do have systedm that richens motor some and with alky that will keep temp down. Plus have 4 wheeler that is setup with pushbar for to and from trips if need,then that means a helper would be mandatory. I am adding a run around cooler to trans. I do have a pump assisted oil draining system for quick oil change. Have drained and filled in less than 4 minutes in testing.
Getting in and out of car? I have not come up with easy way for old guy with bad riught hip and numb feet to do that one. One of those WTH was i thinking things. Looking at pull handle deal for the out part, Buckling up? The pull up belts with hoop and a hook helps,still easier if someone to do the pulling. Removable wheel did help the in mode. Ten years ago body would be the biggest help.LMAO there.
Loading and un loading? I built a set of ramps that sit behing front wheels in trailer.They ride up,straight for 6' and then slowly back to floor.Only 6 inches higher but they help quite a bit. Steering lockout keeps wheels straight and that helped some.
Crew member thing. Most know getting one who will be there every race difficult to say least. Dad tries ,but at 77 his health slows him and after the accident few years ago(fell 16' out of tree and craked 6 ribs in 10 plqces) his mind is just noit what it was. Lil Brother has his own deal and we both have the TA/D deal to work on and that takes few weekends out of picture. Young guys interested enough to be there week after week almost non existent..
far from solving all issues and sure some I have not encountered or thought of. Reason for thread is looking for things I have not thought have and maybe get head start of working around.
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Thankfully my wife is my #1 crew and co crew chief. She is the fuel person and sets final tune on the car. She is always there. Only one time she wasn't (business in another state) I almost crashed the car due to tire shake at a test and tune event. I wanted to try something with the fuel issue we had been dealing with. I dropped 0.1 in the 60ft to a new 1.01 60ft. Glad I'm able to do my belts as that is how I was able to maintain control. The number 1 reason for most FED teams to be a 2 person minimum is the belts/safety......
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I will be surprised if my wife makes 4 or 5 races. Her family is all non car people. One time of it being a fun ride, you know moving around and getting folks attention, that will be her last race. Yea I know straight is fast. The fastest runs you make will seem slow because there is little to know driving involved.
If I take the insert out of seat I can tighten belts lot easier. Kind of counter productive.Tighter belts safer, also safer with insert , which is why I have 300 bucks in it. Ok I decided just don't wreck it and all will be good,going with that plan.LOL
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I have been bracket racing 20 years in my FED. Runs 5.60s 1/8 mile Bottom bulb with delay box,electric shift. Not the fastest racer,But have won my fair share!! It is tough to win with poor track prep. Only adjustment is tire pressure and stall rpm. Just keep temps under control and watch the weather. I also have wife with me to help get ready for next round [love that]. GOOD LUCK!
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Once again I'm trying to think ahead on my FED build that will be for bracket racing. Engine will likely be a mild carbureted 305 Chevy on gas and I'd like to make it user friendly so want to run some sort of small radiator (mounted flat), electric water pump and switched, electric cooling fan on the radiator. Thought is to only switch on the fan when needed, maybe return after a run, and also use it and the electric water pump to cool the engine between runs.
I'm a self-admitted tight-wad and wondered about the possibly using a Ebay-sourced (read that as "cheap") Honda Goldwing radiator from either a GL1100 or GL1200? I'm aware of the "Scirocco" drag race radiators but hope to find something that would work that's a bit smaller. Anyone have any experience with a Goldwing radiator?
Lynn
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Once again I'm trying to think ahead on my FED build that will be for bracket racing. Engine will likely be a mild carbureted 305 Chevy on gas and I'd like to make it user friendly so want to run some sort of small radiator (mounted flat), electric water pump and switched, electric cooling fan on the radiator. Thought is to only switch on the fan when needed, maybe return after a run, and also use it and the electric water pump to cool the engine between runs.
I'm a self-admitted tight-wad and wondered about the possibly using a Ebay-sourced (read that as "cheap") Honda Goldwing radiator from either a GL1100 or GL1200? I'm aware of the "Scirocco" drag race radiators but hope to find something that would work that's a bit smaller. Anyone have any experience with a Goldwing radiator?
I know a guy who used a small transmission cooler. But he ran alky
Lynn
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look on ebay for a honda civic aluminum radiator, you can get them for under 100.00 with fan, new.... they are small enough to fit between the rails but not to small. i have no experience in actual use, but its what i have for my dragster project.
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Thanks for the replies.
225DIGGER....do you happen to know the dimensions of the Civic radiators? More often than not, parts on Ebay don't have a great deal of info like dimensions, and I can understand that wouldn't be important if I were looking for a radiator for a Civic. $100 with a fan would be sweet!
Lynn
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So how many of you who bracket race think you get underestimated or should I say car does? I have had few tell me there will be fist fights with those wanting easy first round win. Figurative speaking of coarse
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I don't normally drive a FED but some guys think that running against my six cylinder altered would be an easy time. So there is that similarity.
Let 'em.
I don't care who I race - anybody can beat anybody. Hero-to-Zero in nuttin' flat.
Just get your car consistent if you want to bracket race. Even if you have to sacrifice some e.t. to do it. If you want to set a personal best e.t. every time you suit up don't expect to excel at bracket racing. Consistency wins. I want to race a competitor who would refuse to lift because he might be on a personal best [breakout?] pass.
Having said that, there ARE certain types of cars I WANT to race. For example, on a hot sunny day give me the guy in a black driving suit with a flat black helmet driving a doorslammer painted black. Hopefully he's strapped in there with a crew member opening and closing the door like a Geisha Girl waving a fan in an effort to keep air circulated to keep him from baking. And if he's a really fast car even the better. I feel that guy sub-consciously can't wait to get out of that car and I will be happy to oblige him. There are other examples too.
Win or lose be cordial to everybody. I try to. But on the starting line if I'm lined up next to my Mother I want to trounce her!
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Too bad we don't have a "Like" button for your post above, Frenchtown Flyer ;D
Lynn
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Thanks for the replies.
225DIGGER....do you happen to know the dimensions of the Civic radiators? More often than not, parts on Ebay don't have a great deal of info like dimensions, and I can understand that wouldn't be important if I were looking for a radiator for a Civic. $100 with a fan would be sweet!
Lynn
so the one i have is 14.5 wide and roughly 18" long i wish i had a part number for you but i bought this thing like 15 yrs ago for my project. yeah that long ago im that guy who has alot of projects that seem to never get finished.
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I don't normally drive a FED but some guys think that running against my six cylinder altered would be an easy time. So there is that similarity.
Let 'em.
I don't care who I race - anybody can beat anybody. Hero-to-Zero in nuttin' flat.
Just get your car consistent if you want to bracket race. Even if you have to sacrifice some e.t. to do it. If you want to set a personal best e.t. every time you suit up don't expect to excel at bracket racing. Consistency wins. I want to race a competitor who would refuse to lift because he might be on a personal best [breakout?] pass.
Having said that, there ARE certain types of cars I WANT to race. For example, on a hot sunny day give me the guy in a black driving suit with a flat black helmet driving a doorslammer painted black. Hopefully he's strapped in there with a crew member opening and closing the door like a Geisha Girl waving a fan in an effort to keep air circulated to keep him from baking. And if he's a really fast car even the better. I feel that guy sub-consciously can't wait to get out of that car and I will be happy to oblige him. There are other examples too.
Win or lose be cordial to everybody. I try to. But on the starting line if I'm lined up next to my Mother I want to trounce her!
CONSISTENCY IS MAIN THING i HAVE TRIED TO FOCUS AL PARTS OF CAR ON. 4.19 GEAR,WITH 1.69 LOW,EASY at the line As loong as enough not to shake it apart. Computer is mainly to monitor events that would effect consistency,like temps,actual shifts. MSD grid tune to track better, New ss fuel lines because I have had rubber lins flake inside and stop a nozzle. Simpile fuel sustem,which kills me. Air shift off time or rpm. 330 lbs on front wheels ,was told 300 minimum to be driveable hopefully keep wheels in beams, Extra heavy on left front same reason. Cwemic bearings less drag has to help and the .02 quicker is just gravy.LOL Adding run around cooling for trans. Few fuel valves for controlling engine temps. Quick oil chage system to lower temp with fresh oild. Tires are up in the air and will only know what it likes as I go. electric chute dump in case of rough topend. Ahve 4 wheeler for towing if need because of temps. Just found that alky fuel temp as with nitro will change with temp as far as jetting.Only .001 or .002.Since main jets do not break dwon in .001 increments I did amke part of by pass where I can adjust if I find that change,IF being key word. Two solenoids that will help get temp on starting line were I need it.
I am sure there are cpl dozen things I have over looked,that don't mean they can not be corrected. All suggestions taken under consideration also.
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So....I've been looking at and giving more thought to small radiators. The size of a Honda Civic radiator wouldn't be a deal breaker but I saw another post, maybe on this forum(?), about using a Honda Goldwing motorcycle radiator. The approximate size of the Goldwing radiator is about 11" X 14" with a thickness of about 2 1/2" and has 1" inlet and outlet fittings. Thoughts on using one of them with an electric pump (or maybe a regular aluminum pump?) and an electric fan with a mild 305 Chevy carbureted on gas? Using an electric pump would have the benefit of running it along with a fan on the radiator to cool down between rounds. FWIW, I plan to run only 1/8 Mi. tracks.
I'm getting ready to build mounts for radiator, battery, fuel and "puke" tanks, so would like to position everything just once.
Lynn
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Put in a radiator and an electric pump. An inexpensive one is a Teel. It is better to build it in initially than to realize later you need one and have to rearrange everything on the car to make it fit. You can always remove either the rad or the pump or both if you feel it is unneeded. I predict you'll need it at some point - hot days, oil downs just in front of you, round robbining, etc.
I use a Sirocco type and and Teel pump.
https://teelpumpcatalog.com/
EDIT: It appears Grainger does no longer carry the Teel 12V bilge pump. Jabsco or Marco are alternate brands.
https://www.ebay.com/itm/184409770558?epid=24019157637&hash=item2aefadca3e:g:edAAAOSwduNiCvb6
https://www.ebay.com/itm/301733368029?epid=1222226781&hash=item4640b5d0dd:g:cQkAAOSwcwRevRPq
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imo, keep it simple, a mild sbc on gas, just use the belt driven water pump with a 160 thermostat.
this way water is always moving through the radiator, put an electric fan on it and turn on and off as needed.
that honda radiator might work only way to find out is to give it a try, i only ended up with the civic radiator as yrs ago on the forums that was recommended to me to use.
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So....I've been looking at and giving more thought to small radiators. The size of a Honda Civic radiator wouldn't be a deal breaker but I saw another post, maybe on this forum(?), about using a Honda Goldwing motorcycle radiator. The approximate size of the Goldwing radiator is about 11" X 14" with a thickness of about 2 1/2" and has 1" inlet and outlet fittings. Thoughts on using one of them with an electric pump (or maybe a regular aluminum pump?) and an electric fan with a mild 305 Chevy carbureted on gas? Using an electric pump would have the benefit of running it along with a fan on the radiator to cool down between rounds. FWIW, I plan to run only 1/8 Mi. tracks.
I'm getting ready to build mounts for radiator, battery, fuel and "puke" tanks, so would like to position everything just once.
Lynn
You definitely want to be able to run the fan and pump when the engine is off. It won't matter if the pump is engine mounted or remote either will do the job. If you go with engine mounted I would look into and electric one to avoid having a belt the could be a problem.
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BK...I'm trackin'.... A belt driven pump wouldn't give me the between runs cooling that I would get with the electric pump and fan. I'll just have to make sure I have a generator/battery charger that puts out enough amperage to run everything and "top off" the battery.
Speaking of battery, I suppose the only way to go would be with an AGM battery for safety sake.
Lynn
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16 volt XS Power for battery needs
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Thanks. Already gone to 16v battery because cpl 12's I had were not doing the job. I installed a quick connect at switch and convertdr charger to same deal to make quick safe charging w/o having to fight clamps. Charger cost about same as battery and neither is cheap.
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Speaking of charging batteries, I would also recommend using an alternator. They absorb little power. One horsepower = 746 watts. At 16 volts that's 46 amps worth of charging, and a fully charged battery will not draw 46 amps worth of power. Even at 50% efficiency that 46 amp draw only requires 2 HP. Trivial.
Remember - consistency over maximum performance?
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Noway to get alternator in the mix,if I wa nted one. With smog pump and fuel pum being belt drive there is just no roon left. I have cranked car about dozen times in a day and never had issue. No water pump,only fan is trans cooler,ignition is msd mag and fuel as said belt-driven. Only juice draw would be small fan for trans,computer,delay box and taillight if on.
I do have a new starter on order which should be better since lot newer and probably more efficient. I also have booster pak on four wheeler if cranking became issue.
Not saying alternator is bad idea just next to impossible on this deal.
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BK...I'm trackin'.... A belt driven pump wouldn't give me the between runs cooling that I would get with the electric pump and fan. I'll just have to make sure I have a generator/battery charger that puts out enough amperage to run everything and "top off" the battery.
Speaking of battery, I suppose the only way to go would be with an AGM battery for safety sake.
Lynn
Moroso has an electric motor with a belt to drive a stock style pump. They work well but its just more stuff that can go wrong.
From the sounds of what you're going to do engine wise you could get away with a standard lead acid battery. Mine worked OK until my 60 foots went under 1.20. An AGM would always be a better choice though.
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Thanks. The pump I'm most considering is a "remote" unit from Allstar Performance and it pumps a LOT of water! Price is around $150 (I'm hooked up with a race parts warehouse) and just bought a 1200 Goldwing radiator on Ebay for $35 including shipping to give it a try.
Lynn
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Funny thing about all the reason why you couldn't bracket race a fed 'when I started project. Two funniest. They don't work if so someone would be doing it and winning the big money races. Best of all they are too inconsistent. That old guy in Kansas told me he had one customer call him complaining about new car he built that made 5 runs and last one was .001 off first 4.This was with 526 hemi with 14-71 high helix. Of coarse the guy was joke complaining. Not sure what you call consistent but if it take more than that, you might be asking little too much.LOL
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Be careful with 16 volt battery they are rather deceiving. They spin over faster but also go dead faster and with mechanical injection you may learn it the hard way.
I think you have to run radiator and fan if you are going to bracket race. If not you will have problems and lose rounds and races because of it. We need all the help we can get and in bracket racing part of consistency is being able to control water temp and other variables as much as possible and to compensate accurately for those you can not control Weather etc.
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Guess I will have problems then. This engine can not run water. then again we have run 4 or 5 bracket cars with MFI and never had water, Most had no issue with heat. Plus I have two solenoids that control fuel that will add or subtract temp pretty quick. I may have to change oil more often, but then I do that anyway. I get about 10 gallons on the average weekend with a/fuel car and just have to filter it and maybe cook a little. As for trans temp I have a new run around system on the way,
I normally can drop temp on return road with richening solenoid, same for trip up if not using 4 wheeler with push bar, I can raise temp wuick with another solenoid that leans the idle down or just use shut off to raise temp. I have two head temp sensors,oil temp and trans temp readings. Thinking about going to two warning lights for high and low temps if I go to digital dash.
I am not saying water might not make it easier. Just it would require a complete new engine. Not to mention complete restocking of spare parts and gear.
Again guys I am not knocking suggestions. Just explaining what I have done to counter some for seeable problems. I do appreciate suggestions and they help me punch list myself. Heck I have had long enough to think thru lot of stuff some of which I might be better off not doing/LOL