FrontEngineDragsters.Org Forum
Technical => Matt Shaff's Engine Shop => Topic started by: GlennLever on June 23, 2014, 06:46:05 PM
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I currently, in case you do not know, have a Pontiac engine in my dragster.
It has reached the limits of a stock block. An after market block (Pontiac) is 5 grand.
Thinking out of the box, if I were to go to a Hemi what should I know and what should I look at?
I would want to run 7.5 with it with the possibility of going to 7.0
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Hate to say it but you will spend more than 5 grand to convert to a hemi you may as well buy the block!
For 7.0 racing I wouldn't start with anything less than a Donovan blocked 392 with some decent heads
For 7.50 racing you could run a cast iron block with some worked over 354 heads
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Hate to say it but you will spend more than 5 grand to convert to a hemi you may as well buy the block!
For 7.0 racing I wouldn't start with anything less than a Donovan blocked 392 with some decent heads
For 7.50 racing you could run a cast iron block with some worked over 354 heads
That's 5 grand just for the block (Pontiac)
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Yes I realize that is just for the block, but you do have all the other components already purchased.
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Yes I realize that is just for the block, but you do have all the other components already purchased.
True, more than you know (another crank, cam and set of heads.
Sure would be nice to get into a more "standard" setup though.
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No Glenn it would not be nice to make it more standard, as running what you have now is in my opinion the way to go. I like Matt,run the BBF - 385 motor. Back when I started there wasn't many parts to run them on blown alky. I made everything myself, enjoyed every minute of it. An example, I ran a 1968 Lincoln 460, I had the crank offset stroked and ran that cast iron crank, stock block, stock lincoln heads with BBC intake & Pontiac exhaust valves, made my blower manifold from a Offy tunnel ram, stock 1968 Lincoln dist with dura spark pickup, T 400 behind it, in a home made funny car. it ran 7.50 at 3,000ft track, never ever had to lean on it. every main bolt, head bolt was stock. I ran a 390 gear and a 36 inch tire, 6,500 RPM.
That said I reaLLY hate the Chevy= Chrysler mentality. The fact that NHRA has banned the BBF from most every class I want to run confirms that mentality. Keep the Tin Indian please.
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It has reached the limits of the stock Pontiac block.
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Glenn, what makes you think that?
I don't know Pontiac blocks, but is it that weaker than, for example, a SBC? How much horsepower you are making?
Going against the grain is always harder, but way more rewarding. I may put an inline 6 in my car one day, maybe a pair of them.
Now, if you're set in going Hemi way, that's super cool too.
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It has reached the limits of the stock Pontiac block.
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Glenn, what makes you think that?
I don't know Pontiac blocks, but is it that weaker than, for example, a SBC? How much horsepower you are making?
Going against the grain is always harder, but way more rewarding. I may put an inline 6 in my car one day, maybe a pair of them.
Now, if you're set in going Hemi way, that's super cool too.
The Pontiac block is inherently weak in the lifter valley, I have been advised that around 850 HP they like to split down the middle. On the dyno this spring it made 813. Since then I have leaned the air / fuel mixture out just a little to get the 8.0 mark (a little more HP).
I do have valley braces in the block and it is a ram air III block I believe I am safe at this point but would not like to push it any more.
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why not go with a BBC ? i know they have valve train problems and stuff when you really start putting out the power , but there are alot of guys running stock blocks over 1000hp blown ..... if you didnt go crazy buying high end parts you could put together a pretty reliable bbc for under 8k i would think .
i have looked at the hemi route myself for the car im building , but i dont see myself going faster than 7.0 so the bbc will be just fine for me i think .... ill do a hemi on the next car i build
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Glenn,
Good and bad with Hemi thing. Good points strongest thing out there. If look at round and hit up higher class alky cars you can get good deals. Fuel stuff I would say stay away from. Now blocks and cranks you can get deal on thru Holbrook Performance(Jimmy Rector) ,Wizzards Warehous(Tom Aykers).Heads and vavletrain same thing. ROds go new. Intake for blower deal lots around.On heads go with older fuel style for more parts intercahngablity. Old BAE fuel style work great if find a set not beat to death.
Down side parts not a readily available in used market as BBC. Nowhere near as many parts at track if need something. Cost depends on new or used. Im running injected Hemi in my FED.Reason I have 3 blocks,3 almost new cranks and 2 sets of heads plus lots of spare parts. If not I would go BBC.
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That said I reaLLY hate the Chevy= Chrysler mentality. The fact that NHRA has banned the BBF from most every class I want to run confirms that mentality. Keep the Tin Indian please.
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The Chevy=Chysler mentality thing isn't as much about being in love with one brand or another, it's about parts availability. Not everyone has the time, money, patience or ability to make every little thing on their car or engine. The RED bracket racers have been the driving force in BBC development for years now, and as a result there's plenty of new and used stuff out there for reasonable money to go fast with. Same with the Hemi stuff, except its been the big dogs of the sport spearheading that development either decades ago or right now. I always get a kick out of my nostalgia customers with blown injected combo's towing to the line running 7.50's while my RED guys drive their cars up and back while running 7 flat.
That being said, I do love different combinations. But racing is expensive enough without paying extra to go just as fast as the guy next door.
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I would like to stay "different" not Chevy or Ford.
I built this dragster to look like it came right out of the late 60's and think the Hemi would look right.
Might just stay with the Pontiac as I do have extra parts.
Suggest good reference material reading to research Hemi's????????
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. I always get a kick out of my nostalgia customers with blown injected combo's towing to the line running 7.50's while my RED guys drive their cars up and back while running 7 flat.
my last RED i had a 632 with junk heads and a not so good convertor , it would run 7.4's at 186-188mph .... on 116 race gas .... 1 1300cfm carb ... lol .... i only towed it to the track in the trailer ..
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Suggest good reference material reading to research Hemi's????????
Racing the early hemi, by Gene Adams:
http://www.thehemi.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=2851
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Suggest good reference material reading to research Hemi's????????
Racing the early hemi, by Gene Adams:
http://www.thehemi.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=2851
Will do.
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Even in aluminum the early Hemi is very heavy and take a long time to build heat. All the old swapmeet parts are gone so generally one has to buy new which is pricey.You will put thousands into an iron block a take a chance of blowing the crank out of busting out a cyl wall and have to start all over again. The one great advantage to it is---very tear down freindly, pull the heads off and not touch the magneto or re-seal the intake manifold ends, after the manifold is off its 10 studs and the heads are off, My SBC is 17 studs and thats after taking the rocker assy and headers off.
Try not to look at everthing as a loss, but as a bank account. Unless you totaly destroy it , when you are done you can sell it (VALUE) to recoupe investment, any loss from sale is considered the cost of doing business
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Call Tony Lombardi....They cut their own aluminum olds...pontiac cant be that much different or harder to do.
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That said I reaLLY hate the Chevy= Chrysler mentality. The fact that NHRA has banned the BBF from most every class I want to run confirms that mentality. Keep the Tin Indian please.
The Chevy=Chysler mentality thing isn't as much about being in love with one brand or another, it's about parts availability. Not everyone has the time, money, patience or ability to make every little thing on their car or engine. The RED bracket racers have been the driving force in BBC development for years now, and as a result there's plenty of new and used stuff out there for reasonable money to go fast with. Same with the Hemi stuff, except its been the big dogs of the sport spearheading that development either decades ago or right now. I always get a kick out of my nostalgia customers with blown injected combo's towing to the line running 7.50's while my RED guys drive their cars up and back while running 7 flat.
That being said, I do love different combinations. But racing is expensive enough without paying extra to go just as fast as the guy next door.
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So NHRA in banning the Ford from racing in all the classes it's banned in, was to save me from making parts ? So then I would go buy someone elses parts & run a Chevy or Chrysler, OK this makes real sense ? It wasn't the Chevy & Chrysler guys that told NHRA that if they didn't ban the Ford they would boycott their races. Now it all makes perfect sense. I can't run a motor made in 1958 in nostalgia fuel racing. I went to Bakersfield for the march meet & watched first round of TF, 9 cars came to the line for the 16 car field. It was OK that my Ford car was sitting home in the trailer, as I felt that I had been saved from spending money & making parts.
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I did not know, completely out of it again.
NHRA banned Ford Motors?
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So NHRA in banning the Ford from racing in all the classes it's banned in, was to save me from making parts ? So then I would go buy someone elses parts & run a Chevy or Chrysler, OK this makes real sense ? It wasn't the Chevy & Chrysler guys that told NHRA that if they didn't ban the Ford they would boycott their races. Now it all makes perfect sense. I can't run a motor made in 1958 in nostalgia fuel racing. I went to Bakersfield for the march meet & watched first round of TF, 9 cars came to the line for the 16 car field. It was OK that my Ford car was sitting home in the trailer, as I felt that I had been saved from spending money & making parts.
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Of all the things they may have considered when making the rules, I'm sure that keeping you from making your own parts wasn't one of them. Whats to stop you from developing Chevy or Chrysler parts that are better than whats currently available? I'm sure their line of thinking came from the experience they had over the years when guys showed up with stuff that was homebuilt, custom, or one off trick (some of these things were brilliant, some not so much) stuff. Some of these guys spent their life savings while others spent beer money. Some showed promise while others showed how well the safety safari did their job, cleaning up oil. That's not saying your stuff wouldn't be top notch, but they won't know until you make a few dozen runs with only the same or less problems than the common combinations that they KNOW have high quality parts in them. Couple that with the fact that there's tons of info and help available for running fuel in the current combinations, and they just might be saving you from yourself. And then there's the opposite problem, what if your stuff turns out to be head and shoulders above the rest? Then they have to police the class to maintain parity (reference PSB, pro mod, and TAD) and that opens up a whole new can of worms. Unfortunately, it's not the 60's any more and if you want to play in the big leagues you've got to play by their rules.
Something to remember is that the racers themselves gravitated to these common combinations for a variety of reasons, not necessarily because the were the best engine out there. Ease of maintenance, new and used parts availability (and interchangeability) aftermarket support, availability of good used cores and parts all factored into it. I really do respect the fact that you like something different than the norm, and I think there's plenty of room to play in the slower classes and have a great time doing it. If you really want to put your Ford to the test, there's always Land Speed Racing. Radical, different, and unique engine combination are the norm over there and you'll be welcomed with open arms.
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The Ford got booted because the bore spacing was greater than the other engines and NHRA feared the "If his is big, mine can be too" additude and racers would have to change out complete inventorys. How this ever related to the Nostalgia end of racing is beond me, but the rules makers have never had an abundance smarts either.
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Fuel 749 nice long post but you missed it completely. In the N T/F & N F/C , I or anybody can run just about anything = yes even Glenns Pontiac is legal. NHRA set a so called bore space rule at 4.840 This bans the Ford, along with Packards & the 472-500 Cad. Nothing will ever make Cads & Packards competitive, These are the only motors banned. Every part needed to make the Ford Competitive already exists and has for a very long time. I could easily offset bore a Ford block to make it Chevy bore center if that was the issue but NHRA banned that also. It is clearly a no Ford rule. I contacted the All American T/F association, who along with NHRA made these rules, I was told that they would discuss letting the Ford run, later I was told that if I ever made a competitive run & could beat the good ol boys - the Ford would be back out, later I was told flat out no Fords.
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The Ford got booted because the bore spacing was greater than the other engines and NHRA feared the "If his is big, mine can be too" additude and racers would have to change out complete inventorys. How this ever related to the Nostalgia end of racing is beond me, but the rules makers have never had an abundance smarts either.
Yes and all this in a class with a fuel pump restriction that makes the hemi guys run destroked cranks and the small bore sleeves to reduce cubic inches, so the motor has enough fuel. and yes the classes do have a cubic inch limit, this make a large cubic inch capable motor have no advantage.
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Keep the Indian!!!!
In fact I was at Van's shop this afternoon and they were tearing down a bitchin GTO headed 400, with 6-71 and a Hilborn injector hat.
Just my opinion.
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Might have to, I like different.
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Might have to, I like different.
Glenn Guys like you should be the gold standard for nostalgia racing. talking about different, back in the mid 70's thru the mid 80's I ran OCIR, Irwindale (until they closed), & Bakersfield also LACR. I ran many front engine dragsters with 354 & 392 Hemi power, guess what I was the only one bracket racing with a Hemi. Most weeks I ran Sat at OCIR & Sun at Irwindale. I was always the odd guy with the Hemi & I had to make just about everything needed to do it. I made the first adapter to put the GM trans behind the Hemi. I also made my own tunnel ram to put a 4 hole Hilborn on the motor. I had up to 40 early hemi's in stock. I even sold 354 blocks, cranks & heads to Gene Adams and I even bought his record holding A/F dragster from him. Keep the Pontiac please.
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There is always this
(http://www.krepower.com/pic/MR-1A%20front.jpg)
Pontiac all aluminum block MR-1A
The need for speed is addictive.
Not purchased yet
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Nice stuff right there.
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Glenn,
I have been running the same aluminum Donovan block since 1996
So Far
3 rods
12 sleeves
4 thread inserts
1 main cap
2 center headstuds
A alu race block is a wise investment
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There is always this
(http://www.krepower.com/pic/MR-1A%20front.jpg)
Pontiac all aluminum block MR-1A
The need for speed is addictive.
Not purchased yet
There is no difference in the price of your aftermarket aluminum Pontiac block than an aluminum SBC pretty much all the components will cost you the same for high quality parts keep your Pontiac. I see they also offer a billet block!
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I know it dangerous but I will take the risk, glenn if you just need a permission note from your wife= I will upon request forge her signature & send it to you.
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My biggest fear is that when I die, my wife will sell all my stuff for what I told her I paid for it
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I know it dangerous but I will take the risk, glenn if you just need a permission note from your wife= I will upon request forge her signature & send it to you.
My wife supports me, she is my crew chief, no problems there.
I'm the tight wad
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To all concerned:
This has been a great thread to watch :D
Glenn: I agree with Van and others: Keep the Pontiac engine and get the aluminum block.
Van and I have Ford engines for a reason 8)
Matt
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Hey guy's I love my little small block ! You are hurting my motor's feelings !!
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Don't worry Bill it will feel better looking back at them. Besides I'll cut a hole in the find with my wide Hemi so the rest can drive thru it little easier. Oh wait this is drag racing means you are in lane beside it getting hit by my air turbulance.LMAO
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This was a very good thread any more about what your doing Glenn I'm in the same boat trying to decide what engine I want to run. I have a 392 block but it makes no sense to spend the money to put caps on it. I have injectors for the SBC and the 392 just have to decide what engine BBC SBC Hemi late or early.
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This was a very good thread any more about what your doing Glenn I'm in the same boat trying to decide what engine I want to run. I have a 392 block but it makes no sense to spend the money to put caps on it. I have injectors for the SBC and the 392 just have to decide what engine BBC SBC Hemi late or early.
Larry maybe I can help ya make a decision.. ;)
Want to sell the whale block or trade for something you could use??
Just asking
thanks
Luke
(585) 545-069 Zero after 4:30 PM EST