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Technical => Matt Shaff's Engine Shop => Topic started by: opa1 on March 28, 2018, 02:42:52 PM

Title: Basic 355 combo
Post by: opa1 on March 28, 2018, 02:42:52 PM
I bought a 179wb Jr.Fuel roller. I want to set it up with a carb, gas and zoomies. I'm not really concerned how quick it is. I just want to have fun. It will also only run the 1/8 mile and is my first FED.

I would think the all up weight with driver is around 1500#. Not sure on this just a guess. The drivetrain specs are 4:86 gear, 31" tire, 1:76 glide.

I have a forged and balanced 355 flattop .005 deck short block. The cam I'm looking at is a Howards 112072-06. Specs out at 246/246 @ .050, 515/515 lift @ 1.5 ratio/ 549 @ 1.6 ratio, 106 on 102. 3200-6700 range. I have a std Victor Jr. 2975 and 750 carb.

For heads I have a choice of
 Performer RPM @ 2.02/1.6/170cc port/72cc chamber. DCR 7.52 static 9.22
World products S/R 1.94/1.5/ 170cc port/58cc chamber DCR 8.74 static 10.76
Engine Quest vortec style 1.94/1.5 170cc/64cc chamber DCR 8.26 static 10.15

I have the Performer RPM heads. The other heads were what I'm looking at. Does this combo look to be somewhere close? Any suggestions on which heads and compression to use?
Title: Re: Basic 355 combo
Post by: jeff/21 on March 28, 2018, 04:52:49 PM
we ran something similar   flat top vortec heads 58cc  o deck .030 head gasket carb on gas  4.86 gears and 10"x 30" tire  we could hot lap it very consistent good fed bracket car. when we started to add hp changed tires to 10x33 then it started to run hot and we changed to alky at first with a carb then injection.everything was normal again got rid of the water pump and rad we also tried 4.56 and 4.10 gears always ran better with 4.86
keep it simple and have fun
Title: Re: Basic 355 combo
Post by: opa1 on March 28, 2018, 05:15:07 PM
Thanks for your input. I'd like to go injection and alky, just not in the budget right now. I should have room for the horizontal radiator/fan.

What were your RPM's and speed in the 1/8 with the 4.86 10x30 tire?
Title: Re: Basic 355 combo
Post by: Frontenginedragsters on March 29, 2018, 08:06:01 AM
OPA1:
 This is a copy of a posting I answered from just a few weeks ago:

Last year [2016 and 2017] we ran a 355 S.B.Chevy in a 175" WB Front engine dragster.
33" tall tires, 4.11 gear and Powerglide NO Trans Break. Leaving off idle.
Engine was very basic. 10 to 1 compression and un-ported 461 castings.
Enderle stacks on alcohol.
Camshaft was a Engle Flat Tappet Solid. 247*/252* on a 110* lobe separation.
Car ran 5.64 @ 122 MPH in the 1/8
It was assembled as a stepping stone from a Jr Dragster for our youngest son.
We had a ball racing it and won several local races.

If you use the cylinder heads that you own, your lower compression ratio will let you use cheaper gas.
Brings the cost of racing down and the fun up.

Matt Shaff
Pro-Formance Specialties
585-288-1499
Title: Re: Basic 355 combo
Post by: opa1 on March 29, 2018, 08:33:17 AM
OPA1:
 This is a copy of a posting I answered from just a few weeks ago:

Last year [2016 and 2017] we ran a 355 S.B.Chevy in a 175" WB Front engine dragster.
33" tall tires, 4.11 gear and Powerglide NO Trans Break. Leaving off idle.
Engine was very basic. 10 to 1 compression and un-ported 461 castings.
Enderle stacks on alcohol.
Camshaft was a Engle Flat Tappet Solid. 247*/252* on a 110* lobe separation.
Car ran 5.64 @ 122 MPH in the 1/8
It was assembled as a stepping stone from a Jr Dragster for our youngest son.
We had a ball racing it and won several local races.

If you use the cylinder heads that you own, your lower compression ratio will let you use cheaper gas.
Brings the cost of racing down and the fun up.

Matt Shaff
Pro-Formance Specialties
585-288-1499
That combo is very close to mine too. Any reason for running the 110 lsa other than a wider power curve? I've done some reading about using zoomies with gas/carb. I came up with mixed thoughts on it.
Using the performer rpm's will kick some of the dcr out but, it would be pump gas friendly. The aluminum would stay cooler too.
Title: Re: Basic 355 combo
Post by: Roger on March 29, 2018, 01:27:38 PM
Looking at your combination of weight, gear,tire diameter, and an engine like yours making 400-425 hp, car should run the eighth mile in about 5.70 seconds at about 120 mph. Give or take. That's puts your finish line engine speed at about 6300-6400 rpm.
With that said, use your rpm heads, the savings in weight will offset any hp gain from increased compression from a smaller chamber. And you already have them.
Since your are using zoomies and aren't killing the engine with rpms, there might not be a big difference with cam timing. Since you will get no inertia scavenging or wave scavenging as collector headers would give you above maybe 5000rpm, I'd suggest giving the cam at least a 108*lsa and at lease 6 more degrees duration on the exhaust as compared to the intake. That will cause the exhaust valve to open earlier to aid in clearing the exhaust gas out and it will minimize the valve overlap to help defeat exhaust reversion into the intake manifold. Invest in a good torque convertor that stalls about 4000-4500 rpm and see what happens.
Most of all, get it running and enjoy!
Title: Re: Basic 355 combo
Post by: opa1 on March 29, 2018, 01:44:31 PM
Good info, Thanks. I'll look and see what cam profiles I can find. I'll post up my selections. 
Title: Re: Basic 355 combo
Post by: jeff/21 on March 29, 2018, 04:57:18 PM
it was a few years ago rpm was just under 7000 and speed was 125-6 the biggest was going from a big box Chinese torque to a name brand was good for .500 and easier to drive
Title: Re: Basic 355 combo
Post by: Frontenginedragsters on March 29, 2018, 06:55:08 PM
I agree with Roger, 108* LSA if I was to do it again.
You will also get tired of gas real quick.
Alcohol is the way to fly.

Matt
Title: Re: Basic 355 combo
Post by: opa1 on March 29, 2018, 09:04:22 PM
Looking at @jeff/21 rpm #7000 and what @Roger calculated 6300/6400 is a big difference in cam choices. With the low compression I was looking at this to keep cylinder pressure up. I'm not sure it will rpm enough. The figures I calculated were closer to @roger rpm's.

Howards solid 110102-08,  http://www.competitionproducts.com/Howards-Cams-Mechanical-Flat-Tappet-Camshaft-Chevy-Small-Block-240_246-050-505_520-108/productinfo/110102-08/#.Wr25DExFw2w
240/246@.050, 505/520@1.5, 108/104 3000/6200


Title: Re: Basic 355 combo
Post by: Roger on March 30, 2018, 08:25:10 AM
I think that cam looks like a good pick. I'd suggest using no more than the required spring pressure with the flat tappet and break it in correctly. And I think you're right, you'll probably start running out of power just before the finish line because of the limited intake port area and compression. But that won't hurt a thing, by the time you feel it, you're on the brakes anyway:)
Title: Re: Basic 355 combo
Post by: opa1 on March 30, 2018, 09:23:10 AM
Thanks! I'm going to try and keep the valve train as lite as possible. I agree with the spring selection. I've run door cars most of my life. Building a engine for the FED is like stepping back a bit. :)

EDIT: What's the thought on Zoomies? 1  5/8 or 1 3/4. I'll be using the 6 bolt flange.
Title: Re: Basic 355 combo
Post by: jeff/21 on March 30, 2018, 04:54:46 PM
we had the cam ground by Schneider talked to jerry and his advice was pretty close and i've used his cams since  it was a flat tappet used the lightest springs possible  the rpm was when running it through the speed trap   
Title: Re: Basic 355 combo
Post by: jeff/21 on March 30, 2018, 05:03:37 PM
Building a engine for the FED is like stepping back a bit
why would you say that, other than cam a torque converter selection every thing else is the same
Title: Re: Basic 355 combo
Post by: wideopen231 on March 30, 2018, 06:29:51 PM
Think he meant keeping it mild is step back. 

Please nobody take this as anything other than statement. I'm always amazed at you guys who can build milder setup and just run for fun. I might start out for mild but then the just little more thing happens. Little more compression,few degrees more cam,little better head,litle hotter ignition and litle more money I can get this much more power.Before I am out the gate at $3000 build is up to 10k and a 500 hp motor is buzzing close to 1000 hp. Heck I am the guy with 100 hp Harley Evo motor in corner for my wheel chair when I old.
Title: Re: Basic 355 combo
Post by: jeff/21 on March 30, 2018, 08:18:24 PM
it all depends if your building for a specific class or some body's budget  the fed started flat piston vortec headed gas motor and carb and is now 406 domed long rod , lw pistons roller cammed ti valved aluminum head injected alky motor TD machine rockers etc. sent a day dyno just testing oils to squeeze the last hp  or testing headers, carbs spacers all to stay legal with-in the rules and win.
Title: Re: Basic 355 combo
Post by: retroboy on March 31, 2018, 04:09:47 AM
Don't over think it. It will be fast with 400 or 425 hp. Ditch the cooling system and run meth. Will run okay on a low comp engine, is cheaper than race fuel, engine will run stacks cooler. Second hand stack injection or a new Meth carb. Personally I find any carbs too much dicking around. Keep it simple. Cheers
Title: Re: Basic 355 combo
Post by: jeff/21 on March 31, 2018, 05:47:01 AM
retro boy is right alky is the way to go even with a carb the only change was to add jet extensions
you can modify your gas carb but an alky carb is a better way to go tried both
Title: Re: Basic 355 combo
Post by: masracingtd1167 on March 31, 2018, 06:25:12 AM
I tend to agree with Chris on that ! We all start out with intentions of only going so fast and that needle goes in a little deeper and the next thing you know you want to go quicker and faster ! That's what Drag racing is all about for me ! Opal That is a great looking car ! Have fun with it !
Title: Re: Basic 355 combo
Post by: opa1 on March 31, 2018, 08:53:05 AM
When I said stepping back, I meant simple build. I would love to go stack injection and no cooling system. That's the way the car was running before. I don't know jack about what's needed or how to run fuel injection.
Title: Re: Basic 355 combo
Post by: Roger on March 31, 2018, 09:12:43 AM
As you can see, a lot of different ideas and views here. That's good because it exposes you to all the ins and outs of making your car work. Once you get it running, I'm sure you'll be just like the rest of us and will make it go quicker & faster! Because you have so many parts already, just consider putting a cam in the block you have now, bolting the top end on you own, putting some gas in the tank and make some passes. You can always go alky later if you choose. Just be sure and take 10 or 15 gallons of water with you for cooling when using gas. Back in the late 70's my altered and feds all ran on gas and the cooling was a bit of a pain in the ass but it worked. After a run I'd pick up the chute and open the water drain petcocks on the block and then let it drain. Let it finish draining in the pits and then let it sit and cool for 20 minutes. Then filled it with warm water from 5 gallon containers setting in the sun on the roof of the trailer to avoid shocking the iron. Took about 30 minutes turn-around time as I recall. That was with an all iron big block but it worked for us. BTW The custom radiator built for my current altered, the water pump, the hoses and fitting along with the water fill manifold came to a little over $1k. It's worked very well so far, we'll see how it works in a couple of months when I double the horsepower and the additional heat that goes along with it.
Title: Re: Basic 355 combo
Post by: 225digger on March 31, 2018, 09:18:52 AM
if you dont have a carb/fuel pump yet, look into a basic alky carb, you can even get away with a cheap edelbrock mechanical pump.

one of the best setups i ran yrs ago was a 250.00 alky carb i got from a circle tracker, i had to put jet extensions on it, i used an edelbrock pump that was good for alky, and a barry grant barrel valve. it was on a mutt of a 350 sbc with 12.1 cast pistons, iron eagle heads and a solid flat tappet cam, ran very consistent 10.6's in a door car but it was very easy to use. i had a limited budget and it worked well for not alot of money. an alky carb is a great intro into running alky without all the extra cost involved of buying an injection system obviously if buying good used stuff.... buying new is going to cost some
Title: Re: Basic 355 combo
Post by: opa1 on March 31, 2018, 09:29:23 AM
I haven't bought the fuel system parts yet. If I were to buy a alky carb and run meth, would I need a cooling system? Just the costs of a cooling system would offset the costs in other areas.

Also want to say thanks for all the suggestions. I'll give it all some thought. There are some pics of the car in the build section. I'll update there as I go.
Title: Re: Basic 355 combo
Post by: retroboy on March 31, 2018, 04:35:13 PM
It will run cool on meth so the cooling system is surplus. Also very consistent even as temp changes. I saw a second hand Rons system offered for $800 the other day - don't kniw where maybe on For A Bodies only forum
Title: Re: Basic 355 combo
Post by: jeff/21 on April 01, 2018, 08:00:31 AM
we ran a ron's pump with the alky carb ran water in the block and heads no cool down routine no water pump no rad no fan when I ran a C/SM IN THE 70'S  had 45gal of warm water hoses an pump on the trailer for the the cooling routine
Title: Re: Basic 355 combo
Post by: opa1 on April 01, 2018, 08:24:53 AM
My nephew had a door car with a Rons flying toilet on alky. That is the only experience I've had with alky. I got the car to run low 10's but never had it run great. I didn't spend a lot of time with it or try to learn to run it. Guess I should have paid more attention.

A friend has a couple of belt driven pumps. He's offered then to me for free. Not sure what brand or type.
Title: Re: Basic 355 combo
Post by: jeff/21 on April 01, 2018, 09:44:08 AM
alky carb seem to run best at 9psi  ran a return line with a poppet valve to adjust pressure  installed a flying toilet on a motor haven't really run it as yet but shouldn't be any harder than stack or hat injectors
to adjust it started up and ran nice in the shop.
 if you decide to run a carb don't forget to install jet extension on the secondaries
Title: Re: Basic 355 combo
Post by: masracingtd1167 on April 01, 2018, 09:49:54 AM
If you already have a four barrel intake the Rons Toilet or Terminator would be a good choice ! I run a pair of terminators on my car and they work great ! It takes a little tuning to get it right but it will work very well on your set up !
Title: Re: Basic 355 combo
Post by: jeff/21 on April 01, 2018, 10:45:19 AM
 masracingtd1167 question about your headers  13/4" into 17/8" with merge collectors how do they compare  reg. stepped headers with a straight collector  because i wanted to try some with a 14" megaphone from the transition
Title: Re: Basic 355 combo
Post by: retroboy on April 01, 2018, 03:44:36 PM
Simplest system ever. One line in. One line back to the tank. Pill in the metering block. Away you go. Awsome throttle responce.
Title: Re: Basic 355 combo
Post by: opa1 on April 01, 2018, 09:34:11 PM
@retroboy, How much oil contamination do you get using that system?
Title: Re: Basic 355 combo
Post by: retroboy on April 01, 2018, 11:59:05 PM
I get a little a little condensation so just pop off the filler caps and it evaporates off. So effectively none 
Title: Re: Basic 355 combo
Post by: masracingtd1167 on April 02, 2018, 03:00:14 AM
masracingtd1167 question about your headers  13/4" into 17/8" with merge collectors how do they compare  reg. stepped headers with a straight collector  because i wanted to try some with a 14" megaphone from the transition
    Mine are 1 7/8 to 2 inch . If you are running gasoline you might see a change ! i went back to a zoomie header and saw no change with alcohol ! 
Title: Re: Basic 355 combo
Post by: wideopen231 on April 02, 2018, 05:09:32 AM
When I said stepping back, I meant simple build. I would love to go stack injection and no cooling system. That's the way the car was running before. I don't know jack about what's needed or how to run fuel injection.

Not saying you need to change to injection first thing,but think about this. Buying carb setup and then injection means spending money twice. Injection is so simple you will wonder why they make carbs. Like other stated shop around some and you can find simple system at reasonable price. Understand you are little more limited on contacts with helpful input.Call few fuel system guys and see what you can get ,only cost a phone call.JMO
Title: Re: Basic 355 combo
Post by: jeff/21 on April 02, 2018, 07:13:35 AM
opa1 in texas there should be a lot of good fuel injections lay around the used ron's unit I bought cost almost the same as a new alky carb up here in the great white north stack and hat injectors are more pricy
 toilet is easy to install on a carb intake just drill the runner as you would for nitrous  ad the rest is straight forward
Title: Re: Basic 355 combo
Post by: opa1 on April 22, 2018, 08:18:35 PM
I bought a nice 327C8A setup today. It has 2 3/16 blades and the ports match up to my RPM heads. So it looks like I'm going injection. Now I need to find the pump and the rest of the stuff. I'll start a new thread for this part. I know I'll need some guidance.
Title: Re: Basic 355 combo
Post by: opa1 on April 28, 2018, 11:29:55 AM
Is anyone running a Enderle timing cover with a standard size sbc balancer? (not big block stout). Is there a seal that will work with the cover?
Title: Re: Basic 355 combo
Post by: dusterdave173 on April 28, 2018, 11:58:11 AM
seal for Enderle cover sbc for std sbc damper is napa number CR17678  usa  maybe $15  order from any fuel injection dealer same seal $35 or more
Title: Re: Basic 355 combo
Post by: opa1 on April 28, 2018, 12:24:49 PM
Excellent! Thanks for the info.
Title: Re: Basic 355 combo
Post by: PSweeney on May 02, 2018, 03:46:29 AM
I have an opposing view to most...

I've run a big block altered on pump gas down into the low 8's.  My current slingshot is a low 9 injected alky small block

Alky is simple IF, the casting, throttles etc is good, the pump and nozzles are flowed/matched and you have tow vehicle at the track.  If you need it self starting, driving to the line etc and have bought untested secondhand gear, it's not for you.  There is learning curve and if you have issues you could be chasing your tail.

The pump gas route can be an awesome set up, without the cost and maintenance required with other induction set ups.  keep the CR sub 10.5-1, get an electric water pump and fan set up, and the very the best thing you can do with this set up is lock out the dizzy.  If you run it with a curve, the retarded timing at idle will put heat into the heads and build overall engine temp too high.  Lock out the dizzy, the cleaner, longer and more efficient burn, keeps the temps down for burnout and staging, just watch for alky cars doing half track burnouts to build heat...  Keep the pump and fan running on the run for even cylinder temps, and cool it in the pits between rounds with the pump and fan plugged into a slave battery.  If you're going into competition, consider a small alternator from a Kubota digger etc, the benefit of a fully charged battery for hot starting and MSD boxes see 14v outweighs the parasitic loss in my view. 
Title: Re: Basic 355 combo
Post by: opa1 on May 02, 2018, 06:34:33 AM
I have an opposing view to most...

I've run a big block altered on pump gas down into the low 8's.  My current slingshot is a low 9 injected alky small block

Alky is simple IF, the casting, throttles etc is good, the pump and nozzles are flowed/matched and you have tow vehicle at the track.  If you need it self starting, driving to the line etc and have bought untested secondhand gear, it's not for you.  There is learning curve and if you have issues you could be chasing your tail.

The pump gas route can be an awesome set up, without the cost and maintenance required with other induction set ups.  keep the CR sub 10.5-1, get an electric water pump and fan set up, and the very the best thing you can do with this set up is lock out the dizzy.  If you run it with a curve, the retarded timing at idle will put heat into the heads and build overall engine temp too high.  Lock out the dizzy, the cleaner, longer and more efficient burn, keeps the temps down for burnout and staging, just watch for alky cars doing half track burnouts to build heat...  Keep the pump and fan running on the run for even cylinder temps, and cool it in the pits between rounds with the pump and fan plugged into a slave battery.  If you're going into competition, consider a small alternator from a Kubota digger etc, the benefit of a fully charged battery for hot starting and MSD boxes see 14v outweighs the parasitic loss in my view.
I've been told this same thing by other members here. I have all the parts to run a carb on gas. I will be setting it up this way at first. Getting acquainted with the car and finding all the bugs will be all the tail chasing I need.
All my parts are here and I'll be putting it together soon.
Title: Re: Basic 355 combo
Post by: retroboy on May 07, 2018, 04:09:49 AM
I have yet to see a FED with an acceptable appearance with a  full cooling system alt etc. Also all that gear battery etc would add considerable weight and complication. While I started the whole run your car on meth thing with you I ran a car on pump gas years ago - dry block no water but there's no way I would go back. The biggest problem going to FI is forgetting anything you know about running a carb. Bigger jet (pill) leaner not richer etc.
Title: Re: Basic 355 combo
Post by: opa1 on May 07, 2018, 01:58:00 PM
I'm still planning to run the stacks at some point. I'm running a flat tappet cam and will have to break it in before I go with injection. I don't want to chance milk down during the process. I do have a stand to run the engine for break in. It's plug and play for a carb setup.
I have all the parts for the injection except for the pump and cover/drive, some plumbing/filter. I have primary, secondary, hi speed bypass, some pills, fuel shut off.
I took the injection apart and cleaned all the parts. Set it back up to open from right to left (when sitting in car)on both sides. Everything setup nice and should work. 
Title: Re: Basic 355 combo
Post by: opa1 on August 27, 2018, 08:25:50 PM
Here's a update on the simple 355. I went with the Hilborn 327C8A, Waterman 400 pump, primary and hi-speed bypass. Leakdown was set at 19% and the idle is dead on. There's no milking and it runs good. First time out the best run was 5:63/115. I need to do a little tweaking next time out. There's more to be had from the combo.

I'm glad I went with methanol. No cooling system. Just water in block.   

Mark