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Technical => Matt Shaff's Engine Shop => Topic started by: gasserx on August 19, 2015, 05:05:16 AM
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There is one race left this season on my local drag strip before the winter gets back here...Race or save?
After last oil change, i think it looks like there is sparkles in my oil.... micro flake...very very tiny, you probably know what i mean. I havent seen anything of this before (i have changed oil after every two runs). But that said, i dont find it easy to see anything at all when its mixed with alky. We decided to run it a little bit leaner for the two last runs, so this oil isnt as grey as it has been before and that might be the reason i noticed now...not sure.
Something is wearing, but not sure what it is.
I have planned to rebuild this winter anyway, just wonder if i should start now, or try a few more runs.
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Take a look up in cylinder head area. See if you can find traces of metal in the oil by the return holes on the ends of the heads.
If it has metal flakes anyplace in the valve spring area you better play it safe.
Hard to tell you not to race it........ :-[
Does it have aluminum rods? Sometimes the chaffing between the rods gets a little more wear when you run it hard.
Use your own judgement but play it safe.
Matt
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Pretty sure its aluminum or brass, because there arent a single microscopic tiny bit on the magnetic drain plug.
No aluminum rods..
Can be a bearing or magnetodrive maybe. Think i'll play safe and split it open. Have a few things i would like to improve anyway.
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I flushed the engine with alky last night and poured it into a clean container. Lots of tiny glitter, and even some bigger flakes. So i am tearing the engine down! Pretty sure its aluminum.
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Gas:
I looked at your other posts and did not see a mention of what you are using for a filter so apologize in case I missed it.
What filter are you running. Have you taken it apart or cut it open?
Have you had a chance to watch your oil pressure when your braking from a burnout or shutting down?
Be really curious as with what you say your seeing in the oil and returns on heads.
From what you are saying I totally agree with Matt FWIW. better to use up a few gaskets then window the block. At least a dive on the bearings.
Just a shot in the dark but are you sure you have your converter spacing correct?
just throwing it out there for your consideration. No disrespect intended.
good luck
Luke
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Gas:
I looked at your other posts and did not see a mention of what you are using for a filter so apologize in case I missed it.
What filter are you running. Have you taken it apart or cut it open?
Have you had a chance to watch your oil pressure when your braking from a burnout or shutting down?
Be really curious as with what you say your seeing in the oil and returns on heads.
From what you are saying I totally agree with Matt FWIW. better to use up a few gaskets then window the block. At least a dive on the bearings.
Just a shot in the dark but are you sure you have your converter spacing correct?
just throwing it out there for your consideration. No disrespect intended.
good luck
Luke
Hi Luke, i dont think i mentioned the filter either. I use FRAM HP4 filters, but i have not split the last filter. I`ll do that tonight and see whats inside.
I dont watch oil pressure down the strip, i have a gauge for my guy to watch at startup and before and after burnout.
I will split open the entire engine anyway. I dont think i will risk anything.
I will check converter spacing again while at it.
Thanks :)
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That engine was a pretty solid unit when Jim let it go as I remember--It is EASY to make a mistake with converter and flexplate area that will knock thrust bearing out quick as a wink--usually converter hub not fitting inside crank like needed--was converter made for engine plate? maybe snatch the oil pan and look at thrust first I believe that engine was running 5.20-5.30 range when pulled out here
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I have 16 runs on it now, and the "glitter" appeared on the last two runs. No traces of it in the oil before that.
Could be thrust bearing also, i'll check everything.
Some of the parts needs to be replaced anyway, like the stud girdle - wich was (sorry) a piece of crap. Going to upgrade to a complete Jesel rocker arm assembly.
I have a best run of 5.7 so far...with very little experience, no transbrake and probably too big rear tires ;D
Closing in...
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I had similar problems with my alky injected sbc. Used the same Fram oil filter and Valvoline vr1 racing 20w-50 oil. Found the glitter up in the oil channel to the lifters. It must have bypassed the oil filter due to cold and thick oil. Also lost oil pressure when braking after the finnish line. My glitter came from the main and rod bearings.
My solution to this was to change to a K&N oil filter and kendall gt1 20w-50 oil. Install an oil heater and an accusump.
I pre heat the oil to keep the oil filter from bypassing due to thick oil. The accusump prevents the loss of oil pressure when braking. I have a milodon full length pan with trap doors and 7qt in it. But it didnt keep the engine from loosing pressure when braking.
My accusump is the 3qt modell. I run a total of 10qt in the engine now. 7qt in the engine and 3qt in the accusump. Problems are gone. Planing on decreasing the amount of oil a bit for next season.
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I agree the Milodon pan is a joke--the "trap doors" etc simply do not work. I have zero issues running 1/8th but that first 1/4 mile shut down caused my oil pressure to drop hard under braking. I am looking for a different pan that will do the job better, Accusump will cure it though.
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The accu sump will help a lot . I think the big issue is the oil that returns back to the pan . Over the winter I opened up some of my oil return holes and it helped a lot . another solution is to put it in neutral but I am not a big fan of doing this . I kind of wait until the chute is out and the car has settled down a little before I put it in neutral .
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when we ran gas 406 we used Rotella t and didn't have any bearing problems then switched to alky we had to change bearings after every outting, a change to Brad Penn resolved the problem
we used a stockcar oil pan on at first and oil pressure dropped on braking then went to a Steff's dragster pan
I wouldn't recommend a fram filter to anybody
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Thanks guys! Seems like i have a few issues to fix then. Oil accumulator seems to be a good thing, and also better oil. What grade oil to use?
What oilfilter do you recomend?
For those of you that use an oil heater - do you also heat oil between runs to get rid of the alky? I talked to a guy at one of the local races, and he used the same oil for the whole weekend as he heated the oil all the time to get rid of methanol.
Myself, i have changed all oil every 2 runs....but that is expensive.., and time consuming when there is tight racing.
I havent split the entire engine yet, but i have removed the heads, and a couple of the cylinders have been beaten. Not sure how bad i should categorize it, so i must ask my engine guy to check. I can feel the grooves with my fingernails.
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I start my oil heater in the morning and use it all the time during the day exept during the race. I have built a tempersture controller to make sure the oil wouldnt burn.
I can see a big decreas of alky in the oil when heating so I suppose it i a good thing to do.
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If you can get the Bradd Penn oil it is the best for alcohol . I have 2 weekends on mine and the oil looks perfect . After a race I will use the oil heater in my shop to burn off exess moisture I also use it at the track in the morning to bring my oil up to temp. While you have your motor apart take a good look at the way your oil returns to your pan this is just as important as a good pan . Also to high volume of an oil pump can make it even worse . If you are milking your oil that bad after 2 runs you might be way rich . One last thing is engine temp . alcohol likes heat!
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Trash the fram crap.I would let my worst enemy use one just out of respect for the parts. Agree on brad penn oil.I like oberg filter ,easy to check and never had problem with them.
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heat the oil before starting, it would get milky when we used a carb couldn't get it lean enough idle-mid range and would go lean on top end changed oil after every day. Have changed to injection and will be running it on a dyno in the near future
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Bill is right, if you need/ want to cook your oil between rounds, you are TOO rich. Also his comment about alky burns better with heat. It's not easy to get a SBC up to 180° +, we look for 200 when pulling into the stage lights. But we have found my raised runner iron heads get hotter than non-RR heads. So lean the barrel valve to help build heat, and also lean [ bigger] the main jet. And it will also run better than your over rich combo.
About your oil deal, 1'st my SBC oil pressure goes as low as 0, while in the shut down, it's not under any load. Even Gene Adams [ MR Hemi] told me if the oil pressure didn't dive in shut down I had too much oil in the pan, the crank is getting into the oil and can slow you down 1 to 2 tenths.
I know a JrFuel racer that after getting a new oil pan and was told it was 11 qt pan couldn't qualify , but after he changed to 7 qts, he was low qualifier, and picked up over 2 tenths. I don't know any 10,000 rpm JrFueler running / needing a accumulator, whether using a dry or wet sump oil system.
When I 1'st became Bud Hammer's partner I bought a RacePak so i could tell what was going on. The 1'st thing we learned he was running too high of oil pressure, like 100#, and his bearings looked OK but cloudy, and after changing the pressure to 60, and going to Motul 10w40 blend oil the bearings looked so good even after 75 runs, when we put new rods in it we just reused the rod bearings. I have no milking of the oil, because of the leaner tune-up and the additives Motul has in their oil. A full Synhetic oil is not recommended for alky burning motors because alky is an ester based product and so is sythetic oil, it will delute too much.
Also I use an oil heater in the pan, but only before the 1'st start in the morning, while we check valve lash and spray assembly lube on the springs. The only racer I know that cooks the alky out between rounds is a top Alky funny car that is running a converter, and needs to get the bottom so rich to get the idle down so low to get the converter to work where he wants it. When he closes the butterflies to lower the idle, they get stuck. He drains the oil and cooks the oil on a stove.
BTW, I have some flecks in my oil after each event, and even tho we don't really need to change the oil between events, we do I guess just because we are a bit of "old school".
As far as the groves in your cylinder walls, check your ring end gap, it could be getting tighter as your motor gets hotter. I have said this before, but if you run water you will make more power, because of better heat control, cylinder wall harmonic control and ring end gap control. I've heard as much as 20 more HP on a dyno.
Because I run a Dart raised cam iron block that has no filter, I use a Patterson remove micro filter, and we take the filter apart after every even looking for any signs of mis-use.
I hope this helps and answers some questions for you.
Jon Hansen, Hayden Wheels, and JrFuel Dragster Association
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Yes Jon, thanks a lot. (and to you other guys too).
I know i have been running way too rich, on purpose, because i was told it would be the safest to start with. However i have leaned it a couple of times on the main pill, and the oil looked much better on the last oilchange (except from the glitter). Its not clear, but looks more like oil than milk. I started with a .060 main, and ended up with .075 before i decided to not run the engine anymore.
Do you use a tempgun to measure correct temp, or do you have sensors connected to the Racepak so you can watch correct temp? Where do you measure temp...heads, block?
Funny how things changes, but i started this season with a clear vision of not using ANY kind of "wired" help, everything has/had to be mechanical. But im not satisfied with a 9.0 @ 1/4mile, and i see the need for a certain amount of infomation from the engine for tuning and for it to last longer.
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OK, the easy answer 1'st, Yes I use a temp gun [ always in my pocket] for looking at head temp shooting at the front of the head near the block [ get a temp gun with a red dot aiming] using it to also check track temp, tire temp after burn out [ some times our driver doers a weak burn-out and tire temp is only a few degrees higher than the track] each zoomie temps to check for injector balance during warm-up, head and tire temp after a run, and engine oil temp after run and warm-up [ with alum pan, I shoot the temp gun at the dark part of a sticker on the pan, temp gun will not see temps on alum, also to "see" temp on heads make sure they are painted a dark color]. Yes my RacePak can sensor these temps, but you can't see them until after the run when I load them onto my lap top after the run. When I'm looking for head temp as we are staging, I may hold back the driver [ with-out pissing off our competition] looking for my 180°+ head temp.
I log all this info for future use. I log 40 bits of data on my run sheets, including time slip info, weather data, car and engine info.
Now about tune-up look/ listen to what your engine wants. I look at each spark plug after each run looking for heat in the plug. I have found the NGK's are the easier to "read", because of the cad plated base [ Champion might work also but I have not tried them]. Look for burned off plating on the base, and ground strap [ burned off to the bend gives you the best/ conservative timing]. Old school is how many treads show heat, but you can be fooled by how many treads could be in the combustion camber. When I ran one of my SBC's in a Comp Elim car [ B/ND] they were sponsored by Autolite, but I found the plugs hard to read because they are nickle plated [ no discolor on base], but Autolite rep was very good at reading and giving advice when we raced National events. So lean it until you can see enough heat in the plugs, remember alky makes more power with heat. Non-raised runner SBC iron heads seem to want 36-38° of timing, with a mag. Jetting depends on fuel pump/ nozzles sizes, call Spud or Don Enriquez at Hilborn for advice.
Like I said I have alum/ copper flakes in the oil, but not to worry, as long as the flakes are not big. One of our JF racers had alum/ copper in his oil for 3 or 4 races and didn't race. What we finally found out the bits were coming from the sides of the bearing from scraping against the larger filet in the corners of the crank. It was fixed when we made the bearings narrower.
For what you are doing you don't need a data computer, but I can't imagine racing 7.00's at 190 mph with-out my RacePak. i do know some FED teams like their RPM computer.
Running your combo way rich is not good for your motor, oil delute , bad on bearings, ring seal, valve guide wear, besides not as much fun.
Feel free to call me, 805-444-4489 if you want more info.
Jon
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Again, thanks a lot for your input Jon. This is great information for a rookie like me!!
I learned a bit about reading plugs from a very experienced guy on my second weekend out. He and is son is running a Alcohol dragster (wich i believe has had the european record for several years).
He told me the exact same thing as you, that NGK`s are easier to read (i had Autolite). They also indexed the plugs so that the gap pointed towards the exhaust valve on all plugs, that way they got more correct reading for comparing each plug. He also told me if i did changes to the pills, change at least one plug to get a new reading. He also teached me a little bit on fuel.
They lean until they get burned on the first or second thread, but as he said: do you want to go fast or go safe - fast can be expensive! (The next day they got a window in their block.. but he said no big deal).
Im running 38 of timing (Vertex mag), and it seems to be working good.
Waiting for my engine stand to get back from a friend before i remove crank and rods for inspection. Crossing my fingers all is good.
I am absolutely sure i would have been into the 8`s at the next race with everything i have learned since last time. Higher idle and perfect temp on engine sounds like the little extra i need to get there!
THIS IS FUN! 8)
Thanks again!
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This is a great site with lots of valuable information!!! You can learn so much by reading all these posts!! With my set-up 427 cu. in. SBC, brodix aluminum heads and Enderle hat on a tunnel, I cant get my plugs to burn any of the plating off the base of the plug, am I too rich still? I run a .75 pill with an enderle 80A .5 pump that is new.
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You are welcome Gass, it is a bit disappointing when I give, asked for advice, and they don't take my advice.
Is your alcohol dragster buddy racing NHRA Top Alcohol racing blown alky or injected nitro ? Blown alky is a different game. i agree with his advice to put one new plug in your motor with any tune-up change, matter-a-fact I suggest a new plug every round. As an example, Q-1 could be early in the morning, at 1200 DA, and Q-2 could be around noon, which could have a density altitude of 3000', well your tune-up just changed because you will have less good air going in your motor, it just got fatter. So I suggest in Q-1 new plug in #1 cylinder , Q-2 new plug # 2, etc, that way it's a little easier to keep track where your new plugs are, plus after 8 runs [ ya I know that might be more than 2 events] you will have a new set of plugs in your motor with only a few runs. At $3.00 each it's not allot of money.
When I 1'st started helping my partner, Bud Hammer he was indexing plugs also, but that goal was to keep the high piston dome [ 16;1] from smashing the plug ground strap closed. When I was doing that I kept trying different plugs until the strap was between 10;00 and 2;00, without using plug washers, I think the washers changes the heat range. But when I built my 1'st RR SBC we cut with a porting tool a "fire slot" in the dome, with the idea it would help the flame front go over the dome, but also not have to index the plugs. I always try to keep our car simple, less likely to have a crew member put the wrong plug in the wrong hole. Also when I ran my motor in a Comp elim [ B/ND] and he had help from the Autolite rep, I asked him now that I cut the fire slot, would it be any advantage to index the plugs 180° from what I was doing, he said Autolite tried that and the dyno test didn't show any difference.
You are right it costs more to go fast , "speed cost money, how fast do you want to go ?" But I know allot of SBC injected alky racers running 8.60's,[NE-2] and 7.60's [NE-1] with bowtie blocks, OEM forged cranks, off the shelf pistons, shifting at no higher than 8500.
Your Vertex is fine until you up your combustion pressure with higher compression and higher fuel flow, and even then you can have Spud hop-up your Vertex, or go to a Mallory Mag. I run 20 amp MSD, because i run around 16;1 compression, 220-230 fuel flow and 10,000 rpm. Your 38° timing looks about right for a non-raised runner heads, but I have helped some JrFuel cars at the Bowling Green Reunion when they had a ton of water grains in the air, you can't burn water, so we kept leaning the fuel and upping the timing to as high as 42° to try to get some heat in the plugs. He would have won, except he red-lighted.
Jon
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Dude66, what are you running for timing ? Are you using NGK plugs ? With no heat showing on your plugs try a .80 main, then a .85 etc until you get some heat. Also the more timing you run the more heat you'll get, but look at your plugs after each change, look for tiny black or silver spots on your plugs, they could be detonation = too far. You can also just fatten her up a bit to cut down on the detonation. AS I've said before look for ground strap discoloration, if you get a blue ring at the bend that's a good but safe timing.
I don't know what your alum heads want for timing, but the iron non-raised runner SBC motors like 36-38°, my iron RR SBC motor likes 29-32°, and I think some of the iron 14° heads like as low as 27-28°. It seems to depend on combustion shapes. So again listen, and look to what your motor is telling you it wants.
Jon, 805-444-4489
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Hey Jon,, im running 38 degrees, with just a 6AL box,, NGK 5671-8 plugs
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Dude, I assume you run on alky, what is your compression ratio ?
I wonder if your 6AL ign is not enough.
Ask some other racers that are running your alum heads, and burn alky what timing they run.
Jon
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They are running blown alky, but as far as i could understand they ran injected alky in earlier years.
I will take the advice of changing one plug for each run, smart way to keep track on things and as you said, i will always have "new" plugs.
The worst part now is that my racing season is over as i have already pulled the engine out, and i will do a complete teardown and rebuild. Last race here in Norway is just 1.5 week away, so im not going to make it. I have learned so many things now that i would like to try out, but i have to wait for the spring to come.
Well... at the next race my 12year old daughter is going to get here license for alky junior dragster, and that might take some of my time anyway.
I only have a stock 350 block, but forged crank and pistons, Brodix heads ... with my so far bad 60 foots at 1.300 (best so far), i really think i can push it way more when i get the correct tune in it.
You are welcome Gass, it is a bit disappointing when I give, asked for advice, and they don't take my advice.
Is your alcohol dragster buddy racing NHRA Top Alcohol racing blown alky or injected nitro ? Blown alky is a different game. i agree with his advice to put one new plug in your motor with any tune-up change, matter-a-fact I suggest a new plug every round. As an example, Q-1 could be early in the morning, at 1200 DA, and Q-2 could be around noon, which could have a density altitude of 3000', well your tune-up just changed because you will have less good air going in your motor, it just got fatter. So I suggest in Q-1 new plug in #1 cylinder , Q-2 new plug # 2, etc, that way it's a little easier to keep track where your new plugs are, plus after 8 runs [ ya I know that might be more than 2 events] you will have a new set of plugs in your motor with only a few runs. At $3.00 each it's not allot of money.
When I 1'st started helping my partner, Bud Hammer he was indexing plugs also, but that goal was to keep the high piston dome [ 16;1] from smashing the plug ground strap closed. When I was doing that I kept trying different plugs until the strap was between 10;00 and 2;00, without using plug washers, I think the washers changes the heat range. But when I built my 1'st RR SBC we cut with a porting tool a "fire slot" in the dome, with the idea it would help the flame front go over the dome, but also not have to index the plugs. I always try to keep our car simple, less likely to have a crew member put the wrong plug in the wrong hole. Also when I ran my motor in a Comp elim [ B/ND] and he had help from the Autolite rep, I asked him now that I cut the fire slot, would it be any advantage to index the plugs 180° from what I was doing, he said Autolite tried that and the dyno test didn't show any difference.
You are right it costs more to go fast , "speed cost money, how fast do you want to go ?" But I know allot of SBC injected alky racers running 8.60's,[NE-2] and 7.60's [NE-1] with bowtie blocks, OEM forged cranks, off the shelf pistons, shifting at no higher than 8500.
Your Vertex is fine until you up your combustion pressure with higher compression and higher fuel flow, and even then you can have Spud hop-up your Vertex, or go to a Mallory Mag. I run 20 amp MSD, because i run around 16;1 compression, 220-230 fuel flow and 10,000 rpm. Your 38° timing looks about right for a non-raised runner heads, but I have helped some JrFuel cars at the Bowling Green Reunion when they had a ton of water grains in the air, you can't burn water, so we kept leaning the fuel and upping the timing to as high as 42° to try to get some heat in the plugs. He would have won, except he red-lighted.
Jon