FrontEngineDragsters.Org Forum
Drag Racing Discussions => Front Engine Dragsters => Topic started by: noslin on August 11, 2017, 09:02:09 PM
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What is the guess for 225'' fed with blown 426 8-71 alum block and heads. No dry sump tank. Glide 9" . Im guessing about 1800lbs
Ty dean
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Yes Ty, you are close, depending on the rest of the car. The NHRA Heritage rules for A/fd [ injected nitro or blown alky] have a min weight, with driver is 1875 lbs. I thinks it's 1850 with a PG.
And the blown 426 style with either PG or Lenco drive, with dry sump, and full body weigh about that.
Brad Peters [ John Feight Train, son] just picked -up their new Neil & Parks 7.0 Pro/ A/FD that will be running Brad Anderson/ AJP blown alky engine. They are hoping to have it ready at CHRR.
Wayne Ramay, our ex JF driver, is waiting for N & P to build his FED to run blown alky AJP 426 style engine.
I hope this helps,
Jon
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My 200" blown SBC, dry dump, clutch, with a 3 speed, and me in it is 1800 lbs
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426 motors are boat anchor heavy 100# more then a alu 417 Donovan
My 193" Blown alu SBC with a glide and 9" 1650# with driver and 120# lead on the nose.
Except for the Alu front spindles which were given to me, did not work at trying to make it lite, just did not add all the junk (GL notice I did not say &#@$) that people seem to want to put on their cars today.
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Most fun day of my build was when I first weighed my 200 in SBC dragster--it weighed exactly 1320 lbs on the nose--I smiled pretty big on that one!
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1 pound per foot of track, cool.
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Dave, was that with or with-out driver. NHRA Heritage, and All NHRA classes are weighted with driver.
My 1963 nitro JrFueler weighted 890 lbs, [wet] with out driver. Our current Heritage JF weighs 1450 with 150 lb driver.
Cheers, Jon
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426 motors are boat anchor heavy 100# more then a alu 417 Donovan
My 193" Blown alu SBC with a glide and 9" 1650# with driver and 120# lead on the nose.
Except for the Alu front spindles which were given to me, did not work at trying to make it lite, just did not add all the junk (GL notice I did not say &#@$) that people seem to want to put on their cars today.
what does it matter what crap (or whatever you feel like calling it) is on the car or what motor is in it, or how someone builds there 'junk' just as long as they can hit the number..... just bracket racing after all right!
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Even with all of the "junk", Mark Vaught's aluminum small block 225" car went across the Bakersfield scales at 1575 with me (200lbs) in the seat and about 30 lbs of ballast in the nose. Horan Sr's NT/F was 1930lbs with a dry sumped Donovan, me in the car and about 50 lbs of ballast.
Roo
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426 motors are boat anchor heavy 100# more then a alu 417 Donovan
My 193" Blown alu SBC with a glide and 9" 1650# with driver and 120# lead on the nose.
Except for the Alu front spindles which were given to me, did not work at trying to make it lite, just did not add all the junk (GL notice I did not say &#@$) that people seem to want to put on their cars today.
what does it matter what crap (or whatever you feel like calling it) is on the car or what motor is in it, or how someone builds there 'junk' just as long as they can hit the number..... just bracket racing after all right!
To answer your first question and your second. What matters is this---- In the type of cars we race, if you remove the engine for now, If you remove all that is not nessesary to pass tech and safely go down the track, all cars weigh about the same, the difference between 200" and 225" is about 10' of extra tubing, or 7 1/2#. There is nothing extra on my car thats not required and did not spend any effort in time and material to make it any lighter, no reason to due to the index, that is the benchmark. If you remove the 120# lead and 230# driver from the across scale weight of 1650# the weight becomes 1300# with engine. Is the difference in weight between my alu SBC w/ 6-71 and the 426 w/ 8-71 500#s???, this is the "long block" we are talking about because both use simular externals and cancel each other out. If the weight difference is only 200#, whats the other 300#, if your weight of 1800# includes a 200# driver, you are still carrying an extra 100# if not, it reverts back to 300# heavy.
The question asked if an 1800# car can run on the index- yes, one just needs to make more power over the lighter cars
the formula for that is #(weight) devided by ET3 X 197.14. The HP number needed to accelerate a given mass and required time and distance
So my 1650# car to run the 1/4 in 7.0 seconds would be 1650 / 343 (7.0 cubed) = 4.81, 4.81 X 197.14= 948 HP
1800# would be 1800 / 343 = 5.25 , 5.25 X 197.14 = 1034HP
If you are confident that your 426 can produce (safely) 1050 HP to run 7.0 then you are fine , if not then you have to look into the "Extras" to reduce weight or spend more money to make power.
2000# (w/driver) is 1150HP
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Bruce,
thank you for your explanation, it is appreciated. i can see where you would be coming from when a person asks a broad weight question such as this as it would equate to HP and this does as well. i like formulas and check the dream wheel quite often crunching numbers. even with all the added seemingly unnecessary junk on the car, i can not see a blown 426 using kb block alum heads etc safely making 1100hp ( i know there is more to it then that general statement). where figuring it will have to be underdriven a bit (12 to 15lb) to get the number. this of course is assuming the tune is correct. one nice thing is im a bean pole and only weigh 200lbs so money ahead there :D
Bruce, how much boost are you putting to your small block, rpm, etc.
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mine was less driver--but it was a fun number
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If I fill my chassis and tires with helium will it be lighter ? I just could not resist !!!
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1100 hp wth KB block and aluminum head is nothing.Same engine use to be in 8000 hp TF car. Same thing alky cars ran for years with 2500 to 3000 hp. My injected TFX92,BAE heads should be very close to 1100 hp. and that bracket race combo. I would not think twice about 2000 hp with that combo.
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Depending on air conditions, my blower only sees 22# of boost whether the OD is 5% or 21% , it just cavitates at that point---which is good because its consistent, re-striping it takes time to settle in and become consistent and you wind up chasing the tune-up. The only thing OD gives you is when the blower comes up to full boost, Lots of OD the boost comes in quicker where as low OD numbers you are further down the track. Lots of time gets eaten up during the start of the race and is the point of course adjustment to get down to the index number or slow down.
Using a 33 x 12 x 15 tire and a 3.90 rear gear -- trap rpm is around 7800 @ 200mph with a converter
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225 frameworks bbc clutch and 2 spd lenco short body 1971 driver included he is old fat guy 250 #
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Weighed my new car today and aligned the front end with the help of a friend. 185" car, 370" blown aluminum SBC, and a glide'. I had guessed it would weigh "about 1300". Well how about exactly 1300 without wheelie bar (or front spoiler, which I haven't fabricated yet). I only have one 10lb fire bottle but the MSD-10 box and coil are heavy. (couldn't believe how much heavier than a -7 box and coil)
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1300 lbs is nice and light. Our 225" wb Heritage JF car with an all iron 400 ci SBC weighs 1445 WITH our driver. No blower. We run 7.0's with a best of 190 mph on pure alky.
So you are happy with your MSD distributer ? All the Heritage JF teams find they need MSD mag's either 12amp or like us 20 amp, with no problems. We moved up to the 20 amp when we started running more compression and more fuel to keep it from missing. We run the 20 amp in my SBC and the Gene Adams built Hemi. How big a battery do you need running the dist ? No battery needed with MSD or Mallory mags. Only battery needed in JF is a one pound battery to run the transbrake and RacePak.
Good luck with your new chassis.
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225" with tfx block, billet heads injected 526 hemi. All of the crap needed to be completive in bracket racilng now days.Driver 210 fully suited.No real super lite stuff.Car race ready 1590 lbs. with full body and 1570 w/o. Colud spend bunch and drop some weight,but its mostly bracket car and check reads same no matter how fast.
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1Only battery needed in JF is a one pound battery to run the transbrake and RacePak.
what battery are you running, i was/am looking at the shorai batteries. 14ah 210cca. wondered if thats enough for hte TB and logger. how often do you charge it at the track?
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Best thing since sliced bread:
http://neilparks.com/chassis/powersupplies.htm (http://neilparks.com/chassis/powersupplies.htm)
Runs Milwaukee batteries. never charge at a race, has gone 5 day races still fully charged.
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1300 lbs is nice and light. Our 225" wb Heritage JF car with an all iron 400 ci SBC weighs 1445 WITH our driver. No blower. We run 7.0's with a best of 190 mph on pure alky.
So you are happy with your MSD distributer ? All the Heritage JF teams find they need MSD mag's either 12amp or like us 20 amp, with no problems. We moved up to the 20 amp when we started running more compression and more fuel to keep it from missing. We run the 20 amp in my SBC and the Gene Adams built Hemi. How big a battery do you need running the dist ? No battery needed with MSD or Mallory mags. Only battery needed in JF is a one pound battery to run the transbrake and RacePak.
Good luck with your new chassis.
I really do not like mags. I run a very old MSD 10 Got to be over 20 years old. MSD discontinued these because they didn't want it to compete with their new line of mags. I run a Std full size battery, It's right behind my 80# of lead. I run a Pro Comp distributor. We self start and run on the one battery, never an issue, never a miss. The MSD 10 easily equals the pro mag 20, as told to me by MSD Our last pass in 7.0 torched the tips off 3 plugs and removed all the porcelain from them, no misfire. We are going to run A fuel & the MSD 10 will stay on the car untill it dies & then we will install the MSD 10 PLus. I have been 6.60 @220 on nitro 30 years ago with a MSD 8 before they were released for sale. I am always looking for more MSD 10's and the coils -
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Greg, how much does your battery and hardware weigh ?
I don't have to charge the battery all weekend either.
Jon
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Best thing since sliced bread:
http://neilparks.com/chassis/powersupplies.htm (http://neilparks.com/chassis/powersupplies.htm)
Runs Milwaukee batteries. never charge at a race, has gone 5 day races still fully charged.
Another plus is that it only takes 10 seconds to change the battery if need be. We run that package on Mark Vaught's 7.0 car in use it for the logger, dash, trans brake, tail light and also an electric water pump that circulates coolant through the heads.
Roo
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1300 lbs is nice and light. Our 225" wb Heritage JF car with an all iron 400 ci SBC weighs 1445 WITH our driver. No blower. We run 7.0's with a best of 190 mph on pure alky.
So you are happy with your MSD distributer ? All the Heritage JF teams find they need MSD mag's either 12amp or like us 20 amp, with no problems. We moved up to the 20 amp when we started running more compression and more fuel to keep it from missing. We run the 20 amp in my SBC and the Gene Adams built Hemi. How big a battery do you need running the dist ? No battery needed with MSD or Mallory mags. Only battery needed in JF is a one pound battery to run the transbrake and RacePak.
Good luck with your new chassis.
I haven't run the MSD -10 before, only 2 starting line hits and a Sunday drive down the track yesterday. So I don't have enough experience to say if I like it or not. MSD said "the -10 box is only second in output to our 44 amp mag" I'm not able to test that claim. I have a 44 amp mag and a SuperMag 5 but I wanted to keep stuff off the front of this engine just for a clean old school look. With my engine out 43" I'm thinking I probably can use the weight of the battery way out front. Plus it looks like I'll have to add weight to the nose anyway (starting at 40 lbs) (later, I may stretch this car to 210 inches). Previously I have used a motorcycle battery in a different car and it had plenty of reserve for a MSD-3 and other accessories. Anyways, it looks as if I'll have to make a few hits to get up on the learning curve. What compression ratio is your hemi and do you run alky or Nitro or a mix?
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The reason I asked about the battery size is I've heard that some teams have to run an alterntor in order to keep up to the drain on the battery using a MSD dist. I guess I'll have to call MSD about a MSD 10 being able to keep up to a MSD or Mallory mag. What they are trying to say is a 10 is almost as good as a MSD 44 is IF the cylinder pressure is lower and the electrical pressure is not needed as much.
The more cumbustion pressure you have the more amps are needed. To answer your question on our Adams built early 410 ci Hemi we are running 15.8 compression, burning pure alky [ Heritage rules], running 2.2 to 2.3 gal of fuel flow [ again more cyl pressure] that's why we need a 20 amp MSD.
If a MSD 10 is almost equal to a 44, why don't the blown nitro or at least the Top Alcohol racers use them ? The 44's take alot of effort/ HP to turn the 44, and they go thru allot of coil wires, and ign boxes. But I guess the pro's run the 44's because they supply the amp's they need/want.
If a team is running less compresion [ 12-13] and less fuel, then less amp's are needed.
Jon, 805-444-4489
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Jon The MSD 10 is not almost as good as a 44 - it is the next in line going down the list. The MSD 10 became very popular with the Pro Mod crowd when it was available. MSD has planed it's being obsolete by not making any more, they want to sell mags. No charging system needed unless you have other big power draws. Mag guys will argue the differences forever & that's OK
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https://youtu.be/kTXQlfT3ynU
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Electronic ignition has more power available at low rpm, and tend to fall off at high rpm, where a mag is weaker at low rpm, and gets stronger as the rpms climb, which is why they are great in boosted applications. Use one with a MSD Grid, and you have a very adjustable ignition system.
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Its a good thing that we dont race low rpm road races and only high rpm drag races then
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slingshot383 it should be pointed out that most (if not all) nostalgia organization do not allow MSD Grid systems.
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The only MSD Grids allowed in FED's are Heritage A/FD and A/ND , B/ND in Comp Elim
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The only MSD Grids allowed in FED's are Heritage A/FD and A/ND , B/ND in Comp Elim
just getting involved with the nostalgia, can you please provide a little history as to why the grid is even allowed at all? i just get second wind of info like one of the msd boxes used in the past was discontinued and this is the replacement? grid is basically a programmable 7 without the ignition, although you add whatever ignition you want to it.
ty
dean
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Dean – not sure on the “grid” chronology history. Comparatively, in many competitive arenas with at least two parties, when an unfair advantage is discovered, it’s typically followed by a complaint. The presiding body investigates with an outcome determined, and typically results in a new rule or modifying an existing one. This process is fluid, over time the original rule may not even be recognizable. Alan
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The MSD grid, i believe just can adjust the timing, in and out and in, it was was replaced with an older style. You set up the perameters you want with your lap top.
I think, and because I don't race Heritage A/FD, I'm not sure of how the timing change device all started, but I think it was about trying to control tire shake.
Kin Bates driver partner in the injected nitro series champs for all but one year, would have such tire shake it would shake the his fillings out of his teeth, ya really !
So I think that's when all the Heritage teams lobbied for the timing control devices.
The big show Top alky teams have always had ign control devices.
BTW, when some of the teams A/FD Heritage switched to the Heritage TopFuel tires [ 12-36-16] 1'st on M&H then M/T it improved the tire shake issue and now 2 teams have run in the 5's.
These "Bubba" tires are very stiff sidewalls, don't grow much and are real heavy, like 70 lbs with wheels, BUT they sure work.
Jon
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The Grid is pretty amazing. To bad it's allowed in nostalgia racing.
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USB connection for ease of programming
Timing based on engine rpm and gear value
Advanced individual cylinder timing based on gear or time
Five retard stages for nitrous
Four steps of rpm limits for burnout, spool, launch and overrev
Output switch set on rpm, pressure or time
Shift light settings for each gear
Ignition data acquisition accepts multiple runs
Crank Trigger system highly recommended
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http://www.enginelabs.com/engine-tech/tech-deep-dive-getting-to-know-msds-power-grid-features/ (http://www.enginelabs.com/engine-tech/tech-deep-dive-getting-to-know-msds-power-grid-features/)
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BTW, when some of the teams A/FD Heritage switched to the Heritage TopFuel tires [ 12-36-16] 1'st on M&H then M/T it improved the tire shake issue and now 2 teams have run in the 5's.
These "Bubba" tires are very stiff sidewalls, don't grow much and are real heavy, like 70 lbs with wheels, BUT they sure work.
Jon
concerning the bubba tires, they have used this theory in the door car series such as 10.5 and 8.5. run on rims that are usually about 4" wider then the tire. this why i asked the question in the wheelie bar thread. seems like everyone just does the same ole thing thats been done for last 60 years. even though these guys have big power for the size of tire, the theory could still provide bennies for lesser powered setups, even feds. hence controlling tire shake with little hp and big tire in addition to wheelie bar height.
The Grid is pretty amazing. To bad it's allowed in nostalgia racing.
ive messed with msd programmable 7 a bit before jumping into EFI. the grid is basically the Programmable 7 without ignition capabilities, meaning all the control is still there and now MSD made it so it is modular for other dizzy's, mags, etc. which is awesome. There is a lot you can do with the GRID. timing is primary, control slew rate..
id love to use it in this type of racing, there would be a lot of benefits to using it. would be nice to have a 2 step on the launch and mess with timing a bit down track. but, im an electronic type of person. i get the 'purist' aspect of the racing.. but this is 2017.. just like nascar went to EFI finally after gazillion years.
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I run the 7AL3 box on mine and it has worked very well for me !
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"but this is 2017.. just like nascar went to EFI finally after gazillion years."
Its just like NHRA Pro Stock, They could of had EFI years ago, But they had to design a system/program that only controlled the one function that the racers could not mess with and not control other things. EFI computers are purged and program updates installed at the beginning of every NHRA event and the EFI parameters re-progamed by the teams
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http://www.enginelabs.com/engine-tech/tech-deep-dive-getting-to-know-msds-power-grid-features/ (http://www.enginelabs.com/engine-tech/tech-deep-dive-getting-to-know-msds-power-grid-features/)
waaaayyyyy too much technology for me. we just changed from points to a gm hei last year. not a fan of it either. prefer the simple old school stuff.
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was speaking to person this weekend at the track and they mentioned running the electronics turns the class into something else, a different type of class. thus, running electronics takes away from what the class is about. putting the electronics just ads cost to the class and makes it challenging for those who are not familiar with it or have tight funds to be on same page. so i can see merit in not having it.
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Its not about tight funds to be on the same page, its more like why spend the money for somthing that is not needed, If everybody has it , then there is no advantage in having it and if nobody has it , nobody is at a dis-advantage.