FrontEngineDragsters.Org Forum
Technical => Roo Man's Room => Topic started by: gasserx on June 11, 2014, 11:47:14 PM
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Hi guys, newbie on here. Lots of good information and great pictures.
Im overseas and im looking to buy a FED. Stumbled over a worm frame, but im not quite sure how to determine if the cage fits me or not.
Im 6ft tall, and around 190lbs.
From what i know, the cage is built for a large person and the front bar is said to be 21".
Any help is good help :)
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I don't have any direct experience with his chassis but you shouldn't have a problem fit based on his specs. I guess for me it would be about aesthetics. The site says it fits someone that's 6'5". With that, if you're 6", that would mean there would be 7" between the top of your helmet and the top of the roll cage. I don't know, that just seems like a big gap. Also take into consideration the chassis is build with 1-1/2" .095 wall tubing. That's just really thick. But hey, do whatever is needed to start racing.
Andrew
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Waiting ::)
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Come on Bruce I know you can't just sit there and say nothing. ::) :o
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Guys
This is towards Andrew's comment. I would think it would only be half of the 7" between your helmet and roll cage. Gotta consider half that 7" is from the waist down. There is also the leg to body length ratio, can be same height with long or short legs. I'm 6'6" with a car built to my size. A friend about 6'2" has 5" between helmet and cage. As they say results can vary. Won't really know until you hop in.
Keven
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I am 5 ft 11 230 and fit easy breezy Get it they are great way to start--just finished mine and love it!
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I wouldn't base a decision on buying a chassis on being able to fit in it. Look around there are deals to be had. Buying something ready to race can be a big savings in money and time. If it's built right.
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Come on Bruce I know you can't just sit there and say nothing. ::) :o
Waiting for Roo to chime in here first, prob at BG, I'll wait ;D
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Come on Bruce I know you can't just sit there and say nothing. ::) :o
Waiting for Roo to chime in here first, prob at BG, I'll wait ;D
Roo Man is at BG talked with him today
Below is a picture of me sitting in a worm chassis, I'm 6' 4" 250 pounds with broad shoulders (have to be to carry all the criticism from the forum). I am a big guy
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Thanks for all the input guys! Buying a complete car is probably the best, but its a big step for me since im not beeing able to have a real look at it first - and i take a big chance by sending a huge lot of dollars to someone i dont know....so...
A nice frame would sure be a good start for one like me :)
You seem to fit in there pretty nice Glenn.
What other options do i have then?
Im trying to keep this to a budget that works with family, and im not going TopFuel! ;)
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Oh, and im looking for a 150-165", i also have a shipping address in New Jersey, and im able to arrange pickup (if someone knows of a good alternative)
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Buy a SFI spec book and educate yourself. The best $ I have spent so far. When you have specific questions bring them back to this forum and let the professional builders help you.
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Gasserx
I guess you are overseas--I inspect cars all the time for my Norway pals--you Must have any car inspected before purchase--I can do it for you just email me jdk@ctc.net I have a network of good guys nationwide if I can't get to it
Again , it is a MUST or you will get robbed
Glad to help
David in North Carolina
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To know what you fit, you have to be measured. Put on helmet and firesuit, and sit against a wall with your arms straight out in front of you and your knees slightly bent, have somebody measure: top of helmet to floor, wall to base of palm, width at shoulders (both relaxed and tight to wall, and rolled in a little) This will let you know what chassis you can fit in.
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David, email your way in a few :)
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Guys
This is towards Andrew's comment. I would think it would only be half of the 7" between your helmet and roll cage. Gotta consider half that 7" is from the waist down. There is also the leg to body length ratio, can be same height with long or short legs. I'm 6'6" with a car built to my size. A friend about 6'2" has 5" between helmet and cage. As they say results can vary. Won't really know until you hop in.
Keven
Doh!
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Admirable and extraordinary amount of restraint shown in the early going of this thread given strong opinions previously expressed.
I will agree, the SFI specs are well worth the money, very educational.
John
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Thanks for all the input guys! Buying a complete car is probably the best, but its a big step for me since im not beeing able to have a real look at it first - and i take a big chance by sending a huge lot of dollars to someone i dont know....so...
A nice frame would sure be a good start for one like me :)
You seem to fit in there pretty nice Glenn.
What other options do i have then?
Im trying to keep this to a budget that works with family, and im not going TopFuel! ;)
I was very tight, without the suit. 19 inches, the current chassis is 23 inches and with the suit I'm just right
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I am back from BG Bruce, and catching up.
Anyone who frequents the front engine dragster pages on Facebook should know my opinions of the Cen-Pen/Worm frames by now. Yes they work (to a degree) and are a starting point for someone who has no experience with front engine dragsters but I have some major issues with various aspects of the frames. They are overly heavy (for no reason except for the fact the Worm seems to have a lot of .095 wall tubing in stock). Heavy does not necessarily mean stronger.
There are various engineering issues. For example the cross member that the steering box mounts to is attached to the frame with bolts through the tube--no bushings, just a hole drilled through the tube. All that stops this from being REALLY dangerous is the fact that the tube is .095 wall.
Where the two halves slip together Worm is plugging 1.25 tubing into 1.5 x .095 wall so there is more slop than I would call acceptable. For the uninitiated the norm is to step in 1/8" increments with .058 wall. Do the math and you will see how sloppy the Worm cars are at that point. If the inner tube is not rosetted to the outer (not normally required) I would be worried about fatigue at the point where the step down is welded.
The torsion bar attachment, if not dangerous, is very "clunky" with much more mass than required. Likewise the pedal package.
The one that my customer brought to me had the rear end so far forward relative to the back of the cockpit that the driver needed to slide his butt way forward to get his legs to hang over the rear axle housing, leaving the lower part of his back arched and unsupported.
The motor mount tabs are about 5" froward of what is nominally the motor mount upright so the mid plate does not act as a firewall and having the motor plate in the middle of an unsupported section of tubing is again poor engineering practice. Once again the .095 tubing is all that lets him get away with it.
The entire car is designed to be simple and quick to build (from Worm's end) as the cockpit diagonals are notched to fit the uprights only rather than in the corner of the bay intersecting the main rails as well. Some builders have been known to do this to promote chassis flexibility but with all 1.5 x .095 tubing that is not happening here. The front of the chassis is the same, rather than notch the rails to bring the overall height down to just over the torsion bar diameter (which is the traditional way to do it) Worm adds his rings and doubler plates to make it quick for him to put together.
The chassis is very shallow top to bottom which can put the steering cross member too close to the transmission in some applications. It also can make it necessary to pull the cross member to pull the transmission.
I might understand if the first cars were like this and later ones showed some improvement but they are all the same with the same issues and John claims to have built 150 of them.
One of the other talking points on Facebook was the cost of the cars but Worm's cars are not really much cheaper than most of those built by more respected builders. The fact that you can buy a car in stages is a plus but if you use his spread sheet and add all the options to get to the same stage as a Neil and Parks base car there really is not a substantial difference in the bottom line. Everyone has to start out somewhere but every builder that I respect continually works hard to improve their product but I do not see that happening with the Cen-Pen cars.
Roo
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I just had a worm car in here, and tend to agree with everything Roo says. I can say however that the steering cross member was slugged with solid rounds and drilled through that for attaching to the chassis. General servicability was terrible however. I could see if these were bargain basement cars, but if you buy all the stuff from him to get to the same level of finish as most builders you're paying about the same. The problem with new buyers is an "thats how they are" mentality, meaning they don't look much past the paint job in judging a car and just assume that that's how all these cars are built. It's not until they've owned a few cars from various builders that they can appreciate the differences and thought that some guys put into the finished product.
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Worth the wait ;D
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Thanks rooman, information with value!!!
Thats just the problem with buying something from the other side of the world, you cant trust what you find on the internet. I thought i had made quite good research, but seems like i looked in the wrong places (i can see that now). Allthough im not going to run a 7 sec car, i dont want to buy a sloppy built chassis, and if thats what the cen-pens are, i will for sure go in another direction.
I think i`ll stick to this forum and ask questions when i find another object.
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Thanks rooman, information with value!!!
Thats just the problem with buying something from the other side of the world, you cant trust what you find on the internet. I thought i had made quite good research, but seems like i looked in the wrong places (i can see that now). Allthough im not going to run a 7 sec car, i dont want to buy a sloppy built chassis, and if thats what the cen-pens are, i will for sure go in another direction.
I think i`ll stick to this forum and ask questions when i find another object.
I'm not sure I would call it a sloppy built dragster, my problem was it was not wide enough for me to sit in, on the other hand one went more rounds than I did this weekend at the HRR.
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Shoddy should fit well.
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Opinions are OK--and expert opinions are good too but...I thought when I found this forum that is would be to get all folks interested in and fond of FED's together and have a place to promote the love , racing, and enjoyment of FED's. Front engine dragsters and any type of Nostalgia racing is the only thing growing in our drag race world--it is growing leaps and bounds judging by the Bowling Green HRR this past wk end and the many other shows I have attended or read about in the last year or two. So it is disturbing that a few folks on here bash other builders --oh lets just say John Worm. Come on..no one has died in one because of some awful failing flaw---unlike Chevys as of late...No they are not near the car like others done by experienced custom builders that have devoted their entire lives to create--but...decent entry level machine that can be finished a little at a time and wind up getting more folks in our camp--Heck Yes!!! Do some turn out poor quality because of home builder inexperience and general lack of skill--sure--like all kit type deals--just look at Cobra kits--they sell 40 times more kits than are ever made road worthy and some are pure t dangerous from lack of builder skill, but others are fantastic fun machines--so to, the Worm cars.
Not bragging but mine has turned out pretty darn well and I feel like if you saw it up close you would think I did a fine job of building--As to some of the "problems" outlined by others ( with all due respect) I would say--yeo the seat area is big at the bottom--lets All kinds of buyers fit ( except Sasquatch size) and a simple soloution is a seat foam form AKA Bead seat kit will do nicely to make my car safe and comfortable for my size butt and back. The weight issue is only apparent to guys that really RACE and are born weight aware about every detail--Guys like me that will club race / match race/ and as you all know really know, just exhibition race couldn't give a poop about 50 lbs one way or the other--Burn alky and rubber and make us all smile is the real idea here not the Maximum effort or a serious hard core to the bone racer--which I was for 25 years --now I just want to have fun and not work at it so hard--I don't care if I go 8.00 or 9.00--could care less so weight? Big deal!
I could go on but in the words of Rodney King--Can't we all just get along??? Bashing Johns cars on the web and hurting the value of cars that many have instead of saying--yea it ain't a NHRA Jewel but I see how we can have more folks to play with--is not in the spirit of growing our beloved sport and if it does not do some growing you guys that are the experts will not have any new customers to build for.
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Opinions are OK--and expert opinions are good too but...I thought when I found this forum that is would be to get all folks interested in and fond of FED's together and have a place to promote the love , racing, and enjoyment of FED's. Front engine dragsters and any type of Nostalgia racing is the only thing growing in our drag race world--it is growing leaps and bounds judging by the Bowling Green HRR this past wk end and the many other shows I have attended or read about in the last year or two. So it is disturbing that a few folks on here bash other builders --oh lets just say John Worm. Come on..no one has died in one because of some awful failing flaw---unlike Chevys as of late...No they are not near the car like others done by experienced custom builders that have devoted their entire lives to create--but...decent entry level machine that can be finished a little at a time and wind up getting more folks in our camp--Heck Yes!!! Do some turn out poor quality because of home builder inexperience and general lack of skill--sure--like all kit type deals--just look at Cobra kits--they sell 40 times more kits than are ever made road worthy and some are pure t dangerous from lack of builder skill, but others are fantastic fun machines--so to, the Worm cars.
Not bragging but mine has turned out pretty darn well and I feel like if you saw it up close you would think I did a fine job of building--As to some of the "problems" outlined by others ( with all due respect) I would say--yeo the seat area is big at the bottom--lets All kinds of buyers fit ( except Sasquatch size) and a simple soloution is a seat foam form AKA Bead seat kit will do nicely to make my car safe and comfortable for my size butt and back. The weight issue is only apparent to guys that really RACE and are born weight aware about every detail--Guys like me that will club race / match race/ and as you all know really know, just exhibition race couldn't give a poop about 50 lbs one way or the other--Burn alky and rubber and make us all smile is the real idea here not the Maximum effort or a serious hard core to the bone racer--which I was for 25 years --now I just want to have fun and not work at it so hard--I don't care if I go 8.00 or 9.00--could care less so weight? Big deal!
I could go on but in the words of Rodney King--Can't we all just get along??? Bashing Johns cars on the web and hurting the value of cars that many have instead of saying--yea it ain't a NHRA Jewel but I see how we can have more folks to play with--is not in the spirit of growing our beloved sport and if it does not do some growing you guys that are the experts will not have any new customers to build for.
I agree with your sediment.
remember the rules.
There are not may “Rules” that I would impose. However please no cussing, cussing just shows a lack of knowledge in the use of the English Language. You can express your feelings without cussing. Be respectful of other members. Everyone has a right to their opinions, and a right to do it differently then you might. No camping on. Think about making your userID something meaningfully or representative of what you stand for.
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Sharing information is what this forum is ALL about. I hope that never changes. Not all information is good news to all.
The advise I will give to all is"make an informed and educated decision on your race car purchase".
I personally made a bad decision on a FED purchase and it took more than a year to educate myself and fix all the problems. Professional advise is given on this forum. I wish Glen had put this together before we bought our car.
A good place to start :http://www.sfifoundation.com/drag-racing-chassis/
George
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"...Can't we all just get along???..."
DusterDave,
I agree with you. Every story has two sides, and I only know very little of one side, but the tone of the comments earlier were inappropriate in my opinion. I don't follow the Facebook discussions, so I don't know if there's personal level disputes embedded in that car review. I met John Worm this weekend at HRR and based on half an hour experience he didn't seem out of touch, unless he's a very good actor (which does happen). I know the comment maker too and have nothing but positive things to say about him.
I am extremely grateful for this forum, knew some fine members before its beginning and met another bunch of fine people here. People are different, cars are different. If we were all the same the world would be a boring place.
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I have also met John Worm. Visited his shop when I first looked into building a dragster. He spent a lot of time with me, and is a nice guy.
I had Roo Man build my chassis. There are many reasons why I made this choice. SlingShot Dragsters certainly builds a capable chassis, and their price is cheaper then Roo Man. I felt the increase in price was well worth it for the difference in quality, the custom built chassis, and reputation that Keith has. I had two personal friends that know Keith and they both recommended him highly.
Here is a link to my visits to those two shops.
http://www.leverfamilysite.com/2010_Front_Engine_Dragster_Selection.htm (http://www.leverfamilysite.com/2010_Front_Engine_Dragster_Selection.htm)
Note that I have stated my feelings without getting personal about it or knocking someones product, just passed information along.
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I agree that Worm has put a lot of people in dragsters that otherwise might not have been able to get to that point but as I stated my problem with his cars is the functionality and safety issue. When I look back at some of my early efforts from 45 years ago I cringe but right from the start I have made the effort to make each car better than the last one, listening to advice from more experienced builders and generally being observant as to what other constructors are doing. Every builder has their own idea of how to construct a car and the smart plan is to pick the best of those ideas to suit your own build. Every chassis builder looks at the opposition's product and at times thinks "Why did they do that?" but in the majority of cases it is not a safety issue.
fuel749 pointed out that the Cen-Pen car that he had in his shop had slugs in the steering cross member but the one that I am working on did not.
dusterdave173 points out that a bead seat insert will fix the seat problem but how many of the entry level guys buying these cars know about that option or even realize that they should be doing just that.
As dreracecar pointed out on Facebook, overbuilding with respect to tube size and wall thickness is not necessarily safer as part of the SFI spec involves some deformation to absorb impact without transferring it to the driver.
The fact that the motor plate is not aligned with an upright means that there is effectively a large gap for fire to get into the cockpit. Very unusual for one of these cars to catch fire but if it did your feet would get hot very quickly.
The loose fit at the step down is also a basic engineering issue that I have never seen in another "pro" built car.
I see some of these same issues in homebuilt cars but Worm is building these to sell and in that case there is a basic obligation to provide a safe, well engineered and designed product not just something that is easy for him to put together with a big profit margin.
As I stated when this furore started on Facebook, I hate to talk badly about another chassis builder but as stated above there are definite safety issues with the Cen-Pen cars and John does not appear to be doing anything to address them. Nobody has been hurt in one of them to my knowledge but lots of people have been driving their GM cars with no ignition switch issues for years and look what is happening there. I am not trying to sell more cars myself but am trying to make sure that the uninitiated have have some information to work with.
Roo
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I agree that Worm has put a lot of people in dragsters that otherwise might not have been able to get to that point but as I stated my problem with his cars is the functionality and safety issue. When I look back at some of my early efforts from 45 years ago I cringe but right from the start I have made the effort to make each car better than the last one, listening to advice from more experienced builders and generally being observant as to what other constructors are doing. Every builder has their own idea of how to construct a car and the smart plan is to pick the best of those ideas to suit your own build. Every chassis builder looks at the opposition's product and at times thinks "Why did they do that?" but in the majority of cases it is not a safety issue.
fuel749 pointed out that the Cen-Pen car that he had in his shop had slugs in the steering cross member but the one that I am working on did not.
dusterdave173 points out that a bead seat insert will fix the seat problem but how many of the entry level guys buying these cars know about that option or even realize that they should be doing just that.
As dreracecar pointed out on Facebook, overbuilding with respect to tube size and wall thickness is not necessarily safer as part of the SFI spec involves some deformation to absorb impact without transferring it to the driver.
The fact that the motor plate is not aligned with an upright means that there is effectively a large gap for fire to get into the cockpit. Very unusual for one of these cars to catch fire but if it did your feet would get hot very quickly.
The loose fit at the step down is also a basic engineering issue that I have never seen in another "pro" built car.
I see some of these same issues in homebuilt cars but Worm is building these to sell and in that case there is a basic obligation to provide a safe, well engineered and designed product not just something that is easy for him to put together with a big profit margin.
As I stated when this furore started on Facebook, I hate to talk badly about another chassis builder but there but as stated above there are definite safety issues with the Cen-Pen cars and John does not appear to be doing anything to address them. Nobody has been hurt in one of them to my knowledge but lots of people have been driving their GM cars with no ignition switch issues for years and look what is happening there. I am not trying to sell more cars myself but am trying to make sure that the uninitiated have have some information to work with.
Roo
Again, opinions/facts stated, with no personal vendetta. This is how I envision the forum working. The exchange of information without personal attacks
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This may be an option for someone looking to build a car. They have a tack welded option for those not capable of jigging a kit up from scratch and the price looks reasonable (and more in line with what a tacked chassis should cost).
http://www.dragstersupply.com/
Roo
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woops, missed two pages of good info from some respected people. let me re edit my post.
Original Poster:
I can tell you that you WILL fit into the new SMRacing/ Lefty's Rod Shop 6.0 Front Engine Chassis. I can tell you that Glenn would fit a whole lot more comfortably in our car than that worm car. and i am not badtalking anyone but i know a whole lot of people that would feel better with you in anything not a werm car.(spoken earlier in the thread).
I base all of this sizing from the mockup with my NFL lineman buddy mocked up in the new car with a grin a mile long!!!!!
So if you want some more info hit up my email or PM me. I will post a thread of the new car here soon, but keeping private for now. And if you are interested, let me know, we will have this car certified on july 4th so if i need to shorten the cage height for you let me know before i put it on the pod. also the dragster supply looks exactly like my fishmouths and tube fitment. we use all USA 4130, no chinese junk. And i could be very competitive with that website price. got some ideas on shipping too. let me know.
lates matt
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Lots of good info, thanks a lot all of you!
I did not buy the Worm chassis.
But I was lucky, and have bought a very nice complete roller. Very happy with that! Next thing is to get it home to the land of the Vikings 8)
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Lots of good info, thanks a lot all of you!
I did not buy the Worm chassis.
But I was lucky, and have bought a very nice complete roller. Very happy with that! Next thing is to get it home to the land of the Vikings 8)
keep us updated
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keep us updated
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Will do, just want to make sure it gets here safe before i post to much :)
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keep us updated
Will do, just want to make sure it gets here safe before i post to much :)
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The process of getting it here might also be of interest for others.
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I bet it will, but think i'll start a thread in another part of the forum.
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I bet it will, but think i'll start a thread in another part of the forum.
This is the place.
Your Builds / Photo Gallery
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Just saw this post, and gasserx I know the guy you are buying the roller from. And I can tell you having raced with him since 2008 he is a stand up guy that you can trust. I know him very well. You have nothing to worry about. This is a very nice car you are getting!! You will be pleased.