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Drag Racing Discussions => Front Engine Dragsters => Topic started by: xlr8 on April 02, 2019, 01:01:08 PM

Title: water or not
Post by: xlr8 on April 02, 2019, 01:01:08 PM
Hey guys, hopefully you can help me settle a dispute on the topic of water or no water in a injected methanol FED with a cast iron Pontiac factory block. I was told that if it is a factory cast iron block that you MUST run water. True? The block has
"hard blok" in it and the heads are Edelbrock aluminum. If it has to have water, does it have to have a radiator? Or can it simply circulate through the engine without one? I just don't see many FEDs running water and radiators unless they are running race gas.
Title: Re: water or not
Post by: opa1 on April 02, 2019, 01:12:17 PM
I don't know on the Pontiac but, I run water in the block on my FED (chevy) methanol engine. It will work without it though. I just do it to try and keep all the cylinders in a even temp. I don't use a radiator or pumps of any kind.
Title: Re: water or not
Post by: dreracecar on April 02, 2019, 02:44:15 PM
Only time you really need to run water through the heads (only) is when you have 2 exhaust valves next to each other like a SBC. If the exhaust valves are separated by an intake valve then no because the fuel charge cools the head as it enters the cyl. In such cases where you have to run water, you can get solid copper head gaskets without water transfer holes and circulate with a camshaft driven WP and a 2 qrt tank
Title: Re: water or not
Post by: jeff/21 on April 02, 2019, 04:30:52 PM
Ran water in the heads block filled, no rad or pump
Title: Re: water or not
Post by: THE FRENCHTOWN FLYER on April 02, 2019, 04:49:57 PM
You do have a tow vehicle to tow you to the lanes and back up the return road, yes?
Title: Re: water or not
Post by: xlr8 on April 03, 2019, 10:57:48 AM
You do have a tow vehicle to tow you to the lanes and back up the return road, yes?
You do have a tow vehicle to tow you to the lanes and back up the return road, yes?


Yes I do have a tow vehicle for towing it to the start and back from the return road.
Title: Re: water or not
Post by: glofria on April 03, 2019, 11:28:22 AM
No water will be needed. Alcohol (water based) is a cooling agent unlike gasoline (petroleum base).

If you do run water, make certain you have a vented catch can reservoir on board for expansion.

Are you only doing the 1/8th mile or going to run 1/4 mile too?
Title: Re: water or not
Post by: xlr8 on April 03, 2019, 11:52:17 AM
We will run both eighth mile and quarter mile.
Title: Re: water or not
Post by: George on April 04, 2019, 05:20:25 AM
I ran a SBC with Dart LIL M block and Dart Iron Eagle 230 heads. The block was fully filled with a hard block filler. We did NOT run coolant. Methanol fuel at 13-20 PSI boost pressure. The SBC does have a hot spot at the cylinder head center. We ran a solid copper gasket . The heads were cut with a receiver groove and the block o-ringed. No problems.The best performance was 4.50 @158 and 7.08 @ 193. I know very little about Pontiac but I can share my info with the Chevy. George
Title: Re: water or not
Post by: Curly1 on April 04, 2019, 05:33:09 AM
A lot of people run them dry on alcohol. I do not feel comfortable doing that and I bracket race sometimes to. So I run a small Honda style radiator with water pump and fan. I have complete control over water temps and it does not weigh much. Whole system including block takes less than 2 gallons of water. With this set up I do not need to be towed to the lanes and back, I can drive it all around and if I am hot lapping in later rounds my water temp stays in control. The cost is maybe an additional 20 Lbs? Well worth it to me for the security of protecting my motor and the consistency of being able to control water temps. By the way the little Honda radiator on Ebay with the fan was under $70 shipped.
Title: Re: water or not
Post by: wideopen231 on April 04, 2019, 06:18:05 AM
I have ran water in injected engine but it was way way back. We ran factory block with brodix heads injected and never ran water,never had heat issue except trying to build heat and car was consistent as could be. My combo in FED is solid black and billet heads so no way to run water if I wanted to. I have found that if you run a little rich its almost impossible to get heat you want and have a richening  valve that allow me to add a little fuel to motor and cool it if ever needed. No problem with oil doing so either as long as you have vacuum pump and/or heat motor and let breath before putting away for the day.

  Running water has been found to be worth cpl horses on some combo's .
Title: Re: water or not
Post by: glofria on April 04, 2019, 07:50:05 AM
We will run both eighth mile and quarter mile.

Blown or injected? Do you have a data recorder and if so, what are the EGT saying? Otherwise, what does the plugs say?
Title: Re: water or not
Post by: xlr8 on April 04, 2019, 09:29:19 AM
No data recorder, and so far the plugs look slightly on the rich side.
Title: Re: water or not
Post by: glofria on April 04, 2019, 10:31:47 AM
That's a good place to start. Take notes on everything and adjust for weather conditions.
Title: Re: water or not
Post by: coupemerc on April 06, 2019, 05:14:17 AM
I'm not running any water. My deal would be leaking all over the place if I tried! ;) Dart Iron Eagle SBC with no freeze plugs and iron heads ported into the brass filled jackets. I can make it idle at any temp I want with stack injection and methanol. I prioritized lighter weight, more radical porting and never having to worry about leaks. I've never run a Pontiac but can't see any reason why it could not be run the same way.
Title: Re: water or not
Post by: xlr8 on April 08, 2019, 11:22:57 AM
You guys are the greatest source of info! Thank you. What type of temperature sensor is used with no water?
Title: Re: water or not
Post by: glofria on April 08, 2019, 01:36:54 PM
Again it would depend on if you are injected or blown. At you running it outright or on an index?

For our blown application we are looking between 1000 to 1100 degrees, which reminds me that we have our chamber and exhaust runner ceramic coated to better deal with the heat.
Title: Re: water or not
Post by: wideopen231 on April 09, 2019, 05:22:33 AM
You guys are the greatest source of info! Thank you. What type of temperature sensor is used with no water?

 I use electric gauge that has a sensor tapped into head.Would think you can do same in block.Does not require being in water jacket are, I also had 4 sensor working on same gauge using 2 3 position switches. I read oil,trans ,left and right head temps. Hardest part is remembering which switch in what position reads what. label printers where made for old guys.LOL
Title: Re: water or not
Post by: xlr8 on April 15, 2019, 11:06:47 AM
You guys are the greatest source of info! Thank you. What type of temperature sensor is used with no water?

 I use electric gauge that has a sensor tapped into head.Would think you can do same in block.Does not require being in water jacket are, I also had 4 sensor working on same gauge using 2 3 position switches. I read oil,trans ,left and right head temps. Hardest part is remembering which switch in what position reads what. label printers where made for old guys.LOL

This car is injected alky, no blower. Where can I find those temp sensors that work on the block or heads without water? What brand are they?
Title: Re: water or not
Post by: wideopen231 on April 15, 2019, 11:44:07 AM
autometer has them and I find them on ebay most of the time. They have two styles, One had a probe that protrudes past threaded part and one that is just the threads. Cylinder head temp sending unit and make sure short or long sweep matches gauge you are using. I think about 15 bucks per unit on ebay. They have cpl listed now.

Like stated if you want multiple points you can wire in 3 position switch with middle pole to gauge and upper to one sending unit and lower to another unit. Flip back and forth between two readings.