FrontEngineDragsters.Org Forum
Technical => Matt Shaff's Engine Shop => Topic started by: gasserx on August 21, 2014, 05:19:51 AM
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I need some power in my FED for next spring, but dont know exactly what to choose.
Car is setup for SBC, so thats it gonna be, but no real requirements beyond that. No moderns though. Anyone wanna suggest something for a guy with a little bit of budget in mind? (I have a family that needs to be "fed" also).
It has to be some extra power over stock though, i still wanna race, not doing sunday picknicks :P
Sure wanna run blown hemi on nitro, but thats not gonna happen in a few years.. i think :o
8) 8) 8)
(http://www.speedfreak.no/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/IMG_8842em.jpg)
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What are the classes available for you to run at your local track?? Carburated engines will get you into the 9.5et range, Injected alc will be 8.5et range, blown alc or injected with a taste of nitro gets you 7.50ets. High dollar blown alc or injected nitro will get you 7.0 and quicker ets
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SBC gives you hundreds of options. Want nostalgic go injected with zoomies and build biggest sbc you can. 383 i great power combo while not exploding 2 banks. Good strong 350 4 bolt main and steel 3.75 crank a set of 6" rods(nice but not a must). Get compression up in 13:1 range with good set of heads.Add a roller cam,cheaper when swapping cam choice. Id go for 275 to 280 @.050 and lifts in mi .600's. You should have good power to lite weight ratio and lots of fun. I think 600 to 650 range possible w/o getting stupid. Now you can get more but the cost goes up huge compared to power gains.
If not for having cpl motors sitting here I would go sbc route my self.I have always loved small blocks especailly older version. 283 was first motor I ever worked on .First motor I tore into I was 14.If dad had known how much that was going to cost? I have though about the 327 I have sitting here.New cam,better heads injection and run the heck out of it.Would be a blast.
Bill should be chimming in.He runs sbc in his fed and its pretty bad small block,but Im sure he has lot more info on good combo than some Hemi racer would. Nothing else send him PM.
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Car is 7.50, so cant go faster. And i dont want to go that fast to start with either, then i have no achievements to make.
My local track offers the regular classes, Pro ET, Super Pro ET, Super classes, Comp, etc... But also the Vintage club are allowed, and as far as i know they race in their own class, but i guess thats if there are cars to run. If only one or few cars, they probably dont run vintage class (Kjell/Sidewinder knows).
Looks like it have to be alco injected, thats what i have been thinking most of also... Just have to start somewhere.
How about block? Will a stock refreshed block do the job? You say steel ccrank, you mean a forged type?
I think i will try to find something that is already built, depends a little on time and money. Or maybe an assembled shortblock. Any idea how much i should put into it ($) to have something safe for lets say 40 runs? (thats about the maximum i can get in a summer i think)
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Block . Depend on goals. If just going with good hop up and staying around 600 hp then a stock block with machine is not bad choice.If you thank you may want to go stronger motor later a after makret block is good investment. Buying once cheaper than buying and then buying another. Forged yes not optional in my opion. Bill Mitchel as well as lots of others have good piece's. The cost is not much more than buying all of the same parts and building and some times they are cheaper.
I am firm beiliever in spend little extra now and save you lots later theory.
You might want to check roush racing parts they buy alot of nascar stuff that has little to not run time and great pirces.A few have bought from them and said best deals the ever got. I do not have exact web site will have to research.These are very high dollar motors and one guy told me he figured he paid about 33 cent on the dollar for his and he swapped cams and went racing.
Go on few other web sites also and ask around lots of guys with great info,lots of morons also that everything about nothing and nothing about everything.Drag race results,Sout west JR fuel ass. SWJFA.com are both great avoid yellow bullet 90% a-holes.
PM Duster Dave he has few contacts in Charolotte area NASCAR central,he might know web site.
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I have sitting here ready to ship---a Killer 383 that ran 5.20's in a good 180 inch car
It is COMPLETE from oil pan heaters , mag, zoomies with covers, pump , injection etc--T&D rockers on fully ported iron Darts--stock block all forged Scat kit, domes etc--READY to drop in and Go!! $6500 plus shipping--less than 20 runs---ready to have fun--cost double that to build call me!!!
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^^^^^ Not a bad deal^^^^^^
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There you go!
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My neighbor had it n a nice car--went blown and parked this unit--it is a killer unit that needs nothing but a flexplate and a car to sit in--stacks are included as well--pro built--ran 5.20s's 1/8th with ease I already have a spare built for mine and pretty tapped out after buying trailer last month so ..first come first served--can ship east coast $200 west coast $300 range free crate
Thanks!!!
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I have sitting here ready to ship---a Killer 383 that ran 5.20's in a good 180 inch car
It is COMPLETE from oil pan heaters , mag, zoomies with covers, pump , injection etc--T&D rockers on fully ported iron Darts--stock block all forged Scat kit, domes etc--READY to drop in and Go!! $6500 plus shipping--less than 20 runs---ready to have fun--cost double that to build call me!!!
^^^ definitelly a good deal.
I built my current engine from scratch (alky SBC 406), mostly with used parts. I probably spent close to that, piece by piece, bid by bid. That was the last engine I built over a stock block (heavily modified block). All that prep labor isn't worth anymore, when there are aftermarket blocks starting at $1.5K. And peace of mind of extra reliability and sturdiness of an aftermarket block is priceless.
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Me and Dave have already talked about that engine, and i think its a good deal 8)
(Dave, you know i will keep in touch with you pr email)
Still wanted to hear some opinions about good/bad choices. Dont wanna rush it yet.
Im getting a few offers in my inbox, thanks a lot. I`ll have a look at them, but so far Daves engine must be one of the best so far.
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Injected alcohol is the way to go...runs cool, easy to tune and very forgiving.
My $.02
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AF150 ,
Funny how things change, that is exactly th oppisite of what 90% of folks talked to told me when I started running injected alky in 1987. Now most where just local bracket racers.Now old man(Alan Starr) said there whre just stupid and did not know better. I would say that your advice is worth at least another 98 cent.LOL
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Injected alcohol is the way to go...runs cool, easy to tune and very forgiving.
My $.02
x2, definitelly.
E85 second best thing for street/strip cars.
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The engine now in my car is a scraped together unit stock block I call the Craigslist special--used eagle crank, new rods and domes, used Trick Flow street heads, used cam even the timing set is used--I simply did good machine work--great valve springs with titanium retainers and good rockers--the rest is nothing special--I LOVE this engine--it has run perfectly ( except my Hilborn adventures and learning) and it pulls like a train--very peppy--small as heck 255/260 at 050 600 lift roller and it ran 5.68 first UNtuned pass--I think it will live a good long life
When you compare the fun vs the expense it is tough to spend the extra it takes to go a little faster Fun Fun Fun keep repeating.....
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Just hooked up with a sponsor wich will help me with enginebuilding/machining! He has a full machine shop, and is a very talented guy. He can do about all thats needed regarding machining. So we are going to build from scratch - thats gonna be fun!
What would be a period correct type of engine? (late 60's) Crank, heads, cam, rods? What should we start with regarding c:r?
I see from the Jr Fuel association rules, that is says "all iron engine" - i assume that means no alu heads also?
We are going to use a stock sbc 4-bolt 350 block as a base. Thats about all for now. Im waiting for the block to be finished before we proceed to buy the other parts.
Hilborn injection and methanol for fuel.
Also going for a filled block, is there anything special to think about regarding that? Thats kind of new to us..
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I have a professionally built .030 over 350. Built by Mullvain Motorsports in East Peoria Illinois. We ran Dart 230 Iron heads and ran with the SWJFA once. The engine was on the dyno and made 640+ hp. I also have a Hilborn stack system ( 2 7/16") and Waterman pump.
I am running a Blown combination now and have other parts for sale. Thanks George (I am in 62563.)
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How much block filler do i need for an 350 SBC?
Its hard to find someone that have this in stock here in Norway, but seems i finally found one that have the Morroso block filler, but they could not tell me how much i need.
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Most here will pour a 400 block but the 350's don't seem to need it--we have always run with no fill--if you do-- a short fill is what most use--do one side at a time--fill about half way up----use a little more water than they call for--too thick and you will make a mess--The Moroso works well--a gallon will do --it comes in gallon jugs--just add water /mix/and pour
You can skip this and still have a great engine
The iron head deal is just for Nostalgia sake here in Jr Fuel ( which is dying anyway) We run aluminum heads --easy to repair and light weight--nothing wrong with iron heads just no big reason to use unless rules dictate Like Jr Fuel
If you do a good little 350 you should run 9.00 in 1/4 Minimum and most are much faster--for starters that is a heck of a ride!!! Build a monster in a few years--a crisp 350 on alky will make anyone happy--That car of yours is so nice and sorted you will fly with whatever you put in there.
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I have seen people use regular tile grout to fill their blocks. Available at most big building supply stores, and there is no preference on which color works the best.
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I filled my SBC 400 production block, 30 over. A lot of prep work to do it right (included muriatic acid etching in my case). Next time I'd just go with an aftermarket block, like Dart SHP, not filled. I like the idea of not HardBlok filling the coolant galleries, making the engine block as sort of a radiator.
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Tile grout? Sounds like something i could test if i had several engines, but not sure if thats something i`ll do right now.
So an unfilled block is okey? Any more votes for that?
I would love to buy the best parts like a new aftermarket block, but i cant afford that at the moment. More important is to have an engine that works and to learn to get used to the car the first season.
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So an unfilled block is okey? Any more votes for that?
I would love to buy the best parts like a new aftermarket block, but i cant afford that at the moment. More important is to have an engine that works and to learn to get used to the car the first season.
To fill it or not basically depends on:
a. Thickness and integrity of cylinder walls.
b. You HP goals.
You could also opt to not fill it in your first season and do it later. I think having full water jackets adds some safety margin to bad tuning or abuse of running an uncooled engine for too long.
Entry level aftermarket blocks start at $1.5K, not as bad as they in the past. A fully race prepped factory block will not be too far from that.
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We already have a stock 010 350 block, so we will use that. $1500 is better to spend on the other parts at the moment.
Not sure what to say about hp goals, but i think we can live with a 5-600hp engine as a starter? Im actually not sure - as i dont have anything to compare with. Never drove a dragster before ::)
Fastest i have done on the 1/4 is a 13.5 sec with a 1953 floorpan beetle with somethig between 170-190hp. And that car was probably heavier than my FED.
I just want to learn, have fun and meet with other people with the same interests. Im only 36, so i hope i have plenty of time/years to build wilder stuff later on.
Might be worth to mention, is that we will possible not be able to make more than a maximum of 5-6 race weekends in a summer. Short season and few races within reasonable distance. In worst case we can end up with just a couple of weekends - rain is unfortunatly a huge partykiller over here.
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We ran a production 350 4 bolt block for several years. It made 650 dyno hp . We ran it dry and water filled. I preferred the block and heads water filled because I could preheat the engine with freeze plug heaters. The car weighted 1480 wet ,with driver and ran a best of 5.05 138 1/8 mile. I still have the complete short block .
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I agree with George, we run water in our iron SBC JrFueler. For one reason we use freeze plug heaters to pre-heat the block, another is water keeps the block/ head temp more even, and we saw more dyno HP because the water keeps the cylinder walls from harmonics, and round for better ring seal. Also block filler might weigh more than water. One time we ran it dry, and it got hot enough to torch the block between the center cylinders and the matching spot on the heads. I had to weld the iron block and heads.
BTW, I know of some very fast JF cars that run BowTie blocks, mostly light race cars with small ci motors, ie. under 400 ci. Don Enriquez just won the 2014 NHRA Hot Rod Reunion running 7.17, 185 mph with McKray Performance non RR 23° all iron SBC.
Jon
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When you run it with water, do you mean without a pump? If so, how much and how about water pressure when its getting real hot?
Im not going to run with a radiator etc..
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Yes, no water pump, don't need it with alky, matter-a-fact your motor will make more power with higher engine temps, 180-200°, with water in the block & heads. Another reason to run water is you can get the motor hotter = more HP.
All the iron JrFuelers warm-up just before towing to the staging lanes, and allot of teams put a blanket over the motor to tow to the staging lanes. Keep-in-mind you will need to lean your barrel valve to build heat. Some teams have the driver pull the fuel shut-off abit to lean it down while backing up from burn-out. This takes some practice in the pits or you can kill the motor.
As far as controlling the water pressure, we just use a fuel injection high-speed lean-out valve and adjust it to 8-15 # to bleed the expansion into a puke tank. We have found it's best to plumb the water hoses from each side into a "T" then into the pressure valve, to keep the pressure equal on each side. Some teams fab a radiator cap and manifold, we like our way because it's cleaner looking, and we can fine adjust it with a shim or two. KISS.
Included picture shows the high-speed valve and puke tank, the fitting on the right is for our vacuum pump/ crank case puke hose.
Feel free to call with any questions, 805-444-4489
Jon
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Thanks Jon (great name by the way, as i have it myself Jon M...) ;D
This gave me some ideas to think about. Very good information.