FrontEngineDragsters.Org Forum
Technical => Spud Miller's Cave => Topic started by: Sidewinder on May 17, 2016, 12:03:28 PM
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Hi :) As vintage dragracing is growing here in Norway, new Engines are built.
We are currently working with a Crower IR set-up for a BBC, 580 cid.on Alky.
Does anybody know the width / Sizes on the spool in the Crower Barrel valve?
Best regards
Kjell
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Kjell - vintage racing popular there, means you have good shows. See picture of a friend’s “vintage” Crower 8H. Was on top a 6-71 early hemi and has original Crower barrel valve. The Crower stack injection BV setup differs. Are you seeking dimensions to machine your own BV and spool? Alan
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For the type of racing we do on this site, the spool or barrel valve are basicly the same size and diameter with the only difference between gas-alc-nitro is the idle slot/ramp
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Hi Alan, yes new cars popping up, and some cars gets some upgrades. Yes the shows are really good, actually we are invited to one of the best tracks. Hope to make it there with the Flathead dragster, waiting to get it machined. ;/ After last year, read record short, the block cracked in nine places :o I don't know if the spool is the same for the stack and blower injector.
Bruce.
The Crower spool has a larger diameter and a narrower slot then Hilborn with a .400" slot. But according to my calculations, they should have approx the same arial. The problem is that the engine don't get enough fuel, even opening the BV for more leakdown will not help. A .50 pill@4psi on the main byfass help some, but still to lean. The 580 cid has eight X36 Enderle nozzles and we use a Enderle 81A-1 fuel pump cam mounted. The system pressure at idle is approx. 20 psi witch i think is way to much, and thinking that the spool is the restrictor. As a note, we don't have an Idle bypass.
The owner has made some spool blanks this week, so we will try to make a new spool with a little wider slot and maybe a little more aggressiv ramp. The butterflies are 2.9 " in diameter, so we need a lot of fuel when they open up.
If we knew the excact spool data, it would have been a little easier to tune it, but I do belive we will get it running. Hope :)
Kjell
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Flathead block “cracked in nine places” that’s record in my book : ) That many cracks might not be fixable. Nice to receive invitation to run at best track, rarely happens here for a “Supercharged Ford Flathead V8.”
Was guessing you were making your own parts. Spool doesn’t look complicated to replicate, make it work flawless requires more determination. Crower made a individual runners (IR) unit for the 396-427-454ci Chevy with butterflies close to 2.9”. Your friend’s 580ci engine little larger…
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Yep Alan, nine cracks is record in my book at least ;) It might be more, but I have stopped counting;) The cause was more than one fault. After breaking the rear-end, 8 3/4 Chrysler, we really needed a good run the same weekend, so overheated the poor old flattie, and smart me had experimented, filling the block with expoxy witch should not expand, but it did!! ;) So two new blocks are in the works, as all internal parts survived ;)
Are are correct Alan, and you pointed out the fact that this Crower injector was never made for a displacement of 580 cid. Also modern high flow racing heads and cams also is an factor. With 2.9" butterflies opening, this one needs alot of fuel ;)
/Kjell
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One of the members here Andrewb has had a flat head V8 block for sale that has been filled with aluminum. I see it pop up on Craigslist every now and than
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Paul – thank you for passing on that information; seldom seen drag-only block. Andrew and his flathead, he has remarkable ideas, be memorable milestone he finishes his project. We all know requires much patience, constantly other priorities. Alan
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Yes his father in-law Earl Floyd is a wealth of knowledge! He ran Jr.fuel injected nitro Desotos and many more combinations
http://cacklefest.com/Northwind.shtml
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Hi Paul :) Thanks for the info.
I have tried to search for Andrewb, but only this thread came up. Please PM his contact info if you have it.
The two new block are gone be filled with Moroso Block-rock
/Kjell
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Are you sure you alc BV and not a gas BV ???
Get the system (injector and pump) on a flow bench and get a baseline (lbs per hour fuel burned x CID)
when was the last time the pump was checked???
has the system you have ever ran before and how did it perform and what type of car was it on?
what is the indication that its lean?
what are you running for a transmission?
running without an Idle check makes it fat which is fine for cars that have a rolling start ( Sprint cars and such)
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I had his phone number at one time as I bought some parts from him but couldn't find it if you click on the hyperlink below you could send him a PM
http://www.frontenginedragsters.org/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=269
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Bruce
We would have flow tested the hole thing if we have had time, as it need to be sent to a good friend in Sweden. Right now we had hoped to get it running for an upcoming event. The pump is brand new, and we tested it to be sure. But the system pressure indicates that it makes more than enough fuel. The Crower injection has never been tested over here, bought from a guy in the US. It came with 6 X 38A nozzles and 2x 37A nozzles, correct me if I'm wrong, should indicate that it had been running on Alky.
By lean? It does not run propperly on all cylinders, even with the .50 pill @ 4psi in the main byfass, it still would not run good. No extensive smell or sputter. With almost 50% leakdown it should have really fat.
Regarding Idle or secondary bypass, some are not using them. I know that in Nitro appication it was normally not used in older high pressure systems. Again, correct me if I'm all wrong, but what I have experienced, is that it the Idle bypass is more important on smaller engines that could not handle/burn that much fuel. It is mandatory on my small 290 cid, both on launch and going off from WOT at the 1320 mark. We will consider the secondary on this 580 cid when and if it gets enough fuel.
We are gone test some ideas this weekend and I will get back with a report or some more questions ;)
Thanks Paul, could be really interesting to get in contact with Andrew :)
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Oh Bruce, and you asked if the BV is an Alky BV?
That was my intial question, how do I see that?
Hilborn BV's are the same for Petrol, Alky and Nitro, just different spools.
Does not this apply for the Crower BV's?
And as Alan wrote, these units was made for 396-427-454 cid BBC. Not for a 580 cid.
Have checked each cylinder with for leakdown, and Spark is also OK, so next up is that we will check the vacume in each stack with a Uni-syn and go from there..
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If it is lean at an idle put more leak to it the engine doesn't care how much leak it has just as long as it's not lean or over fat.
Can you whack the throttle from an idle? Does it have a stumble if so fatten the barrel valve.
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Again, without posting pics its hard to decern issues. the enderle and hilborn cube style BV run the same spool for all types of fuel with the only difference being the idle slot or ramp for fuel at Idle (leak) when you get into the "K" style BV is spool is bigger because the fuel transfer goes to 2 outlet ports.
What flow numbers did you get with the pump?
Are the nozzles crower or hilborn? and do they still have the tiny screens in them? if so could they be plugged with crap?
You also mentioned the spark was good, but what type is it--- magneto or electronic
Trying to figure where you are getting the 4psi number w/ .050 main, main jet does not come into play until off idle, the secondary Idle (@2#) leans the pump at idle and you fine tune that transision with the link. As soon as the the butterflys open the secondary circut closes off.
when you say the cyls dont run right, is that stationary or does it happen down track and where does it start to go wonkers
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Ok here are the resault ;)
First we widen the spool slot and rounded off the ramp. This helped some, but we didn't get get the respons we where looking for. So we changed the approtch, focusing on the air, to get more vacume. This unit came from a fuel injection shop in the US, as was resently serviced. But the butterflies was not seated right and a little off the sync, left and right side. After this was fixed, the engine started to work a little better. Still a little too much system pressure, making it very nervous on the leakdown. We consentrated to keep the Leakdown around 26-30%. The vacume was still too veak, but this is due to the extreme cam profile, with over 320 degrees of duration and 112 degrees of lobe seperation.
We desided to plug the air bleed holes in the nozzles, and that was the trick, bang spot on :)
We ended up with this set-up before calling in the day;
Around 28% leakdown
Main bypass was set to open at 4 psi with a #105 pill. (a tad to lean, so we will try a #95 pill next)
Idle bypass (Secondary) set to open at 14 psi with a #140 pil. (We will try to put inn a smaller pill, or shimming it to open a little later as it leans out a little too much goin of the throttle from WOT to off)
All this done stationally, the Altered has not been on the track, so we need to se what the respons is under load.
Hope this made any sence? Bruce ?
Thanks for the input guys :)
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Kjell - pleased to read you making progress. Your change to main bypass from .050 to .105 pill makes sense to me. My 6 cylinder has Hilborn stack injection and the nozzles have air bleed holes, with Hilborn 150A-0 pump on methanol needs 110-115 main pill. My friend’s Crower 8H has nozzles with the air bleed holes too, he also ran port nozzles off a separate “out” on the BV. Not sure why plugging the air bleed holes worked; good news to read. When I read Bruce's responses, I thought he had the solution, either was a "petrol spool" or the nozzle screens were plugged, or both. That’s big duration number in your camshaft. Alan
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Have you checked all of your throttle plates to see if some are closed all the way . It sure sounds like that is your problem . It takes some time to get them even and it must be done with the manifold on the motor . You need to get them all to close all the way and not bind when you open the throttle . Do one side at a time . I used to take strips of paper and loosen all of the butterfly screws and play around with the plates are nice and even and don't bind . Once you get this done you can set your plates around .003 . If you can borrow or buy a uni sync tool it would be a big help to balance your air flow to the motor . Before you go crazy changing things I think you should start there . You will never get it to idle right if you don't have your butterfly's balanced . I hope this will help with your problem ! Bill
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Bill, you are right that was one of the problems. We have ajusted the butterflys and opened the up a little.
The challenge is the camshaft, witch does not produce vacume at idle. To compensate for lack of vacume we have to plug the air bleed holes, similar to some blower engine set-ups. As said the engine sound and respond good now :)
Alan
This engine is not mine, I just have helped out some. We are not a big comunity of vintage drag racers, but growing steadily ;) Check out www.svda.se under the menber section.
We usually attend two race's at Kjula Dragway, and this year we might be able to attend at one race at Tierp Arena, check it out, world class track, http://tierparena.com/ :)
/Kjell
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I am guessing that you are looking to keep the original BV but what we have seen and done is put an Enderle BV on it.
I think all of the fuel racers did it back in the day so it would run right and tune easier.
Also for our upright Hilborn 4-port racers, Jim at Enderle has a butterfly shaft for one of their units that will fit the Hilborn 4-port with only minor slotting of the butterflies. The splined shaft is superior!!
Take care, K
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Still confused on how you are running your system or maybe we are using different terms for the componants.
There are for the most part 3 returns for the system---
the first one we see is the idle bypass check/ pump saver. there is only a poppet inside the canister and is set at 2# to keep the BV full when the system is not opperating and when the injection is shut at high RPMs the the fuel pressure has somplace to go instead of slamming the fuel pump. A jet is not needed in the idle bypass because its done with the link between the BV and the throttle shaft. Opening and closing the idle slot it the bypass jet.
Second is the main bypass jet, it can be located in the BV or installed away from the BV on a return line. there is no pressure check poppet in the system, unless you use the fuel circuit within the BV and fuel return is thru the Idle bypass line, but at 2# the poppet is open and fuel coming thru the main runs unrestricted because there should not be another jet inside the the idle check can.
Third is the highspeed jet/return that when the engine is running at speed and pump/fuel overcomes the amount of fuel the mainjet can bypass, at a pre-set pressure the poppet will open and thru another jet, will handle the overage of the main circuit. At idle this return does not even come close to opperating, only way to tune is by running the engine at speed and make adj by changing spring shims and return jet size.
Since this is fuel injection and the fuel is delivered under forced pressure, engine vacuum plays no role in its delivery.
For 60+ years, injection has be set up with aireated nozzles (blown engines have non-aireated on the down side of the blower because of manifold pressure) and why yours needs them plugged to run better at idle is making up for problems elsewhere and could create different issues once you run it on the track
Can I ask who in the US set up the injection??? and did you get paperwork with it???
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I have taken a V file and widened the slot some on enderle's.May have missed it ann all of the reply's.Has pump been flowed?No experiance with crower BV's so not going to make statement about flow on them.I agree that if its lean then opening leakage will not hurt anything as long as its not going rich. As stated those BV's where made when 580 ci was unheard of. Seems someone would know flow of it at x% leakage.
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You have something weird going on with that combo . I don't see why you would have to plug your air bleeds . Why don't you try to plug the secondary off I don't think you really need one at all . That should show you something . Not sure about the Enderly numbers on nozzles . Would that mean an orfice size of .038 . On my small block I use a nozzle with an .037 orfice and that is 394 cubes . If the nozzle is too small you will have higher pressure as you explained .Thats all I can think of right now . I don't think the cam is the issue . Is that duration at .050 or advertized ?
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"...I don't think the cam is the issue. Is that duration at .050 or advertized? "
I'm with Bill, not a cam issue. Fuel is squirted here, not sucked.
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Yes, barrel valve is the same, spool is different. Something in your system isn't doing what it is supposed to. You should be feeding the pump with a #12 or bigger line, #8 from pump to 3-way shutoff, #8 to the barrel valve. Now, between the shutoff and barrel valve should be a tee with your main by-pass, unless it is built into the barrel valve (like an Enderle unit). An Idle by-pass is a good thing, and it should be set to open at 18 - 20 psi. If there isn't any blockages anywhere in your system, with a #50 main pill, you should be pig fat. Check every line, distribution block, and fitting for an obstruction, and make sure that when you thing your shutoff is open, it really is!
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You dont need all that Idle bypass spring pressure, its only open when the BF's are closed and with that pump there is not enough pressure to open it