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Drag Racing Discussions => Front Engine Dragsters => Topic started by: wideopen231 on July 03, 2019, 06:27:56 PM

Title: negatives of FED as bracket car?
Post by: wideopen231 on July 03, 2019, 06:27:56 PM
Ok first I know we have had threads about bracket racing a FED. Is it the choice of cookie cutter crowd?No. Is it easiest to get tune up info on,heck no. Is it cool? xxxx yes. Can it be just as consistent as a four link RED? I think so,with proper prep and tuning. Have been told from day one( alot of days between then and now too) a FED is wrong for bracket racing and can not win on anything but a fluke day. Reason I asking here is site is FED's and not a bunch of do as everyone else or you don't have a chance bracket racers only site.Maybe short cut learning curve.Yes I know getting it on track would too.Trying for end of August once heat dies down some,its just not my thing to  play in.

Question what would be the negatives or obstacle with a FED as a kick butt screw the names bracket race car?
Title: Re: negatives of FED as bracket car?
Post by: dreracecar on July 03, 2019, 07:20:47 PM
I cant think of any reason/obstacle why it would not be competitive. we have some index cars that are deadly right on the index and you have a better view if you are wheel racing. The only criticism I have is that sitting in a fed, you/yourself cannot get the belts tight enough and you would need some help, those that say they can do it themselves have never crashed at speed because they are still alive.

 Adding to that, the bigger and faster/quicker the motor, the harder it is.  Its just brackets with a very lite car so it does not take a lot to be consistent.
Title: Re: negatives of FED as bracket car?
Post by: spookie on July 04, 2019, 02:15:59 AM
Bracket raced my fed for 20 years. Runs 5.60s 1/8mi ,delay box on bottom bulb.When racing faster dragster I see the front wheels 20ft before they see mine,helps with finish line racing.Cut a good light,dail it tight,Bring home the cash!!! Have won my share.
Title: Re: negatives of FED as bracket car?
Post by: masracingtd1167 on July 04, 2019, 04:40:18 AM
I think if you are good at what you do it dose not matter what you are driving ! A really good bracket racer will pay attention  to what the other racers are doing and when they race you they will know if you are holding or not and most of the good ones will hold a little ! Some racers don't care for bracket racing buy I think it is a great way to race and it makes you a better driver !
Title: Re: negatives of FED as bracket car?
Post by: Curly1 on July 04, 2019, 06:44:04 AM
It has taken a year to get my FED to working good and it still is not as good as my 4 link altered was. Plus the FED really is a pain to load and unload, race etc. The 4 link altered handles much better in shut down are and stops better. There are several tracks around here that I simply can not run the dragster. The altered had no problems. The altered stopped much better than the dragster because it had front brakes but more importantly does not flex / bounce like the dragster does. So you really should throw out parachute every pass. That is not good for a bracket racer. You want to make it simple for one man to race.

You certainly can bracket race it but you will find it is much harder than a door car or 4 link car and that takes a lot of fun out of it. Much more like work and if it is any where near as hot there as it is here you do not want to make it any harder than you have to.
Title: Re: negatives of FED as bracket car?
Post by: Curly1 on July 04, 2019, 07:24:38 AM
Plus a FED is flexible and the chassis will not last for as many passes as a stiffer suspended car. Note we are not talking about a short, slow FED here.  When you start running low 5's or faster then you need to get that chassis to working or suspension. An altered, a door car, funny car or even suspended dragster has a stiffer chassis and will last much longer. With all of the flexing a 225 inch FED has it going to break uprights, welds and stuff. And if it does not flex it probably is not going to work good. On a fast car it is hard to get chassis, tire, weight balance and everything working together right. Tire selection on a suspended car is very forgiving. On a FED it is not and I do not I do not know about you but I do not have $750 a pop to try 10 different tires to find right one that works. The MT 3074 tire was best tire ever on my altered.  Does not work good on dragster at all. Same rear gear, same motor, same transmission and almost same weight yet does not work good. Luckily I have a good data logger to help me narrow down the problem.

I also agree the FED is cool and while RED 4 link dragster may be best tool  for bracket racing I have no desire what so ever for one.

You can bracket race a FED but you will find it is much more of a pain in the tail. Unless your car was running something like 6 in the 1/8 mile or slower. The faster you go the harder it is going to be to make it work (unless you know someone who has already got a really good combo and closely copy it) even then they are not the same. My altered was just as fast and it was fun and easy to bracket race and I did not need any help to do it. My dragster is a whole different animal and I do not bracket race it. Too much of a pain and no fun. I think you will quickly tire of bracket racing it. But to answer your question. Yes, you could.
Title: Re: negatives of FED as bracket car?
Post by: dreracecar on July 04, 2019, 09:32:44 AM
Plus a FED is flexible and the chassis will not last for as many passes as a stiffer suspended car. Note we are not talking about a short, slow FED here.  When you start running low 5's or faster then you need to get that chassis to working or suspension. An altered, a door car, funny car or even suspended dragster has a stiffer chassis and will last much longer. With all of the flexing a 225 inch FED has it going to break uprights, welds and stuff. And if it does not flex it probably is not going to work good. On a fast car it is hard to get chassis, tire, weight balance and everything working together right. Tire selection on a suspended car is very forgiving. On a FED it is not and I do not I do not know about you but I do not have $750 a pop to try 10 different tires to find right one that works. The MT 3074 tire was best tire ever on my altered.  Does not work good on dragster at all. Same rear gear, same motor, same transmission and almost same weight yet does not work good. Luckily I have a good data logger to help me narrow down the problem.

I also agree the FED is cool and while RED 4 link dragster may be best tool  for bracket racing I have no desire what so ever for one.

You can bracket race a FED but you will find it is much more of a pain in the tail. Unless your car was running something like 6 in the 1/8 mile or slower. The faster you go the harder it is going to be to make it work (unless you know someone who has already got a really good combo and closely copy it) even then they are not the same. My altered was just as fast and it was fun and easy to bracket race and I did not need any help to do it. My dragster is a whole different animal and I do not bracket race it. Too much of a pain and no fun. I think you will quickly tire of bracket racing it. But to answer your question. Yes, you could.


  I have had to repair more RE chassis for uprite breakage then I have had to for the FE chassis,  its not the motor placement/flex, but overall chassis design that causes the problems.

  Bracket racing is all about having a good reaction/light and consistency FOR THAT DAY.  Dial-ins can be changed throughout the event, so what the driver is strapped into, does not matter. I can show you 50+ time slips of my blown alc FE dragster (no suspension) with 1.09 60' times and never had to weld the uprites back in. but again Ive never had to race on a track with a crappy shutdown area, Id rather pack up and go home then to kill the car

 
Title: Re: negatives of FED as bracket car?
Post by: Curly1 on July 04, 2019, 11:14:28 AM
There are a lot of tracks around here with rough or short shut down areas. Not worth crashing the car. My dragster is actually much stiffer than it was originally and still very flexible and it does not take much to make it bounce in the shut down due to flex. In fact some of the tracks I raced in my altered never even thought of the shut down area or noticed how rough it was. Same track in my dragster was a handful. Using parachute helps but who wants to do that every time?
Title: Re: negatives of FED as bracket car?
Post by: wideopen231 on July 04, 2019, 12:10:29 PM
First I am not arguing the negatives posted,input is why I started thread.

 On the seat belts.I have done cpl test fit deals and get them pretty dang tight and I am firm believer in tight belts.I do have belts where you pull up to tighten lap belts which maybe difference.

 Loading wise I do not see where FED is any different from any other 225" car.If issue is with dragging especially on stupid beaver tail crap all trailer(most) come with.I will be doing away with that as soon as I can get to where I can build what I want instead of buying something  that is just a get me by.

As for the ET part .This thing will be 4.70 1/8 or less.If not I will be redoing a bunch of stuff. I do not expect it first it but should be by hit number 3.LOL I figure with close to 1000 hp and around 1625 lbs that is not a unreasonable expectation.If anything it should do better.

If not for challenge of getting it tuned to work like I want I would not have built it. I am just thinking maybe you fellas with lots of FED experience  will have more insight to these than the guys who run those boring everybody got same car things.Not that they do not work great and probably smart way to go, I  believe you can always do it different and do it just as good or better with work.
Title: Re: negatives of FED as bracket car?
Post by: Curly1 on July 04, 2019, 12:44:25 PM
I also agree with very tight seat belts but that is on any car I drive.

As for consistency my dragster is good now that I have got most of the bugs worked out.  The problem is the shut down area on most tracks that is not an issue with all the other cars I have drove.
Title: Re: negatives of FED as bracket car?
Post by: dreracecar on July 04, 2019, 01:08:45 PM
Bet I can get another 1" out of them

 And why is it the fastest part of the track , where you really need to maintain control when things go bad is so rough and bumpy
Title: Re: negatives of FED as bracket car?
Post by: Mrs Esterhouse on July 04, 2019, 01:14:42 PM
we have won a lot of events bracket racing, only thing we fight is if the track starts to go away in the later rounds it seems to affect us before the red,door car guys.
Title: Re: negatives of FED as bracket car?
Post by: wideopen231 on July 06, 2019, 10:23:04 AM
Curly,

 Two thins I have on my car for bad shut down. Well one but two way to activate. I have a air solenoid  for chute. I can either hit the oh crap button on steering wheel(both hands on) or if  I know track has rough shut down I can do it off timer and have chute out every time same spot. I can also just hit handle as norm. I also have a second chute with quick swap set up so as to avoid having to hurry pack chute. If you drive into chute it will make rough shut down lot smoother.

Glad you are getting your car worked out.
Title: Re: negatives of FED as bracket car?
Post by: Calkins on July 08, 2019, 05:35:32 AM
but again Ive never had to race on a track with a crappy shutdown area, Id rather pack up and go home then to kill the car

I hope you packed up this day.  I think this was Sac?  Made for a great photo opp...
Title: Re: negatives of FED as bracket car?
Post by: dreracecar on July 08, 2019, 08:02:08 AM
In fact, I did not even go to that race, or been up to SAC for 5 years now, where the owner of my former car races it, is his problem now.
Title: Re: negatives of FED as bracket car?
Post by: wideopen231 on July 08, 2019, 11:43:50 AM
but again Ive never had to race on a track with a crappy shutdown area, Id rather pack up and go home then to kill the car

I hope you packed up this day.  I think this was Sac?  Made for a great photo opp...

And that is why I have steering wheel mounted oh crap button to dump the chute if need.
Title: Re: negatives of FED as bracket car?
Post by: BK on July 08, 2019, 04:59:10 PM
The only thing I can think of is heat in the cockpit.
After a time trial or two right around third round everything is hot.
I was glad to have my fire suit between me and the heat.
It never stopped me though just reality.
Title: Re: negatives of FED as bracket car?
Post by: wideopen231 on July 09, 2019, 02:54:42 PM
thanks .
Add fan to car to pull heat out of cock pit. Thats advice I can appreciate,especially considering how much I hat heat. Good thing is most bracket races around here time between rounds is long for first 2 or 3 anyway and getting later and cooler by late rounds.
Title: Re: negatives of FED as bracket car?
Post by: Scott Krieger on July 11, 2019, 03:31:04 PM
Negatives to overcome as bracket car, TO WIN?

Front tires don't like leaving the stage beams consistently pass to pass.
Dose not turn well.
Likes to bottom out & sages over time.
Can't see center of track.

Some things need to be overcome and some you contend with, to gain the advantages and ride of a FED!

Our FED won the last pro bracket here at LVMS and is fifth in points with 4 to go. Car is very happy




Title: Re: negatives of FED as bracket car?
Post by: wideopen231 on July 11, 2019, 04:55:01 PM
Hopefully I have at least two of those covered.

 Hoping the slip joint I have about 1.5' back from front axle will help with lights and beams. 

As for seeing center of track my semi high chair positions and new lowered injector  should help there, Visibility of front end was big part of reason for building lower set up

As for others time will tell as with all things and will attack then. Agian I am hoping the above things will be more limited .

As for does not turn well. Are you talking straight axle front end or A arm style front end? Not say difference ,but have me wondering .
Title: Re: negatives of FED as bracket car?
Post by: Scott Krieger on July 12, 2019, 07:46:03 AM
Made ours a 174" triple slip joint to fit a normal garage. Can jack up the car under the front motor mount bottom rail will raise 7" before front tires start to dangle off the ground. First two slips I use stops on to control about 4" of that movement. Front slip is always free to eat up shut down area and getting on binders hard.

For us that fixed the sagging that occurs over time and it plants the fronts into the ground before lifting them. If we try to lift the fronts for a picture by adding rear weight, they come up about 20' out and chassis arch is cool. Not bracket mode.

A arm front, can set up at 0", 1" or 2" stagger. LVMS's track exits to the left, so we run 1" with left being short. makes turning that way much easier.

In the car you can see the middle top half of the front tires, thats good enough. We race 90 degrees at the finish line. Most door cars are slower, so we drive up to their rear bumper/back tire depending.  Most dragsters are faster so we can see their fronts coming and bring their cage in.

Enjoy
Title: Re: negatives of FED as bracket car?
Post by: rooman on July 13, 2019, 05:58:53 AM
Negatives to overcome as bracket car, TO WIN?

Front tires don't like leaving the stage beams consistently pass to pass.
Dose not turn well.
Likes to bottom out & sages over time.
Can't see center of track.


#1 If the car does not leave consistently there is something wrong with your chassis/set up

#2 If it does not turn well there is something wrong with the way the steering is set up (this also applies to Scott's car--the amount of stagger should not affect how the car turns although poor ackerman geometry is often a contributing factor)

#3 If it bottoms out and sags over time you have a chassis design problem

#4 Are you talking the overall track centerline or your own lane? If you can't see the track centerline, once again it is a problem with the design of the car. As for the centerline of your own lane, straight ahead visibility is highly overrated--as long as the wall and the track centerline stay the same distance from the car you are going down the middle of the lane.

The above comments are based on 50 years of building front motor cars, lots of time as a crew chief on a  7.0 car  and some seat time in a couple of front motor top fuel cars. In the NDRL 7.0 category it usually takes a 7.00 something to be at the top of the qualifying list and the dragsters are right in the mix and can repeat.

Roo
Title: Re: negatives of FED as bracket car?
Post by: wideopen231 on July 13, 2019, 03:16:33 PM
Turned fine other day riding around neighborhood .Well was little rough turning around at end of street with only 2 lane ride area.LOL Hey neighbors thought it was cool and I was bored. Even Deputy 6 houses down liked it,

 I do have to adjust the stop for left hand turns since tire gets into the drag link enough to rub pretty good,but only issue on really hard turn which should not really be doing anyway.
Title: Re: negatives of FED as bracket car?
Post by: wideopen231 on July 13, 2019, 03:24:45 PM
Made ours a 174" triple slip joint to fit a normal garage. Can jack up the car under the front motor mount bottom rail will raise 7" before front tires start to dangle off the ground. First two slips I use stops on to control about 4" of that movement. Front slip is always free to eat up shut down area and getting on binders hard.


Enjoy

 I can raise mine about that with all joints loosed up some. I am going to start out full rigid and loosen front joints then maybe one of others . I have 3 in chassis plus the one at front end. My front slip joint allows good amount of chassis lift w/o wheels leaving ground. I figured while building car I would add them as another tuning tool and if decided I did not need or like something a few minutes with welder and little grinding of the stops and we are back to solid chassis. Naterials cost almost nothing and was just work and thats point of having a race car.
Title: Re: negatives of FED as bracket car?
Post by: Scott Krieger on July 14, 2019, 09:56:05 AM
Hey rooman,
Bracket racing my friend is a different world to win in. Not saying to race in, but to win in.


5 tenths, full tree with no electronics car is not the same as a car with electronics. Have you every built or run a fed to leave on the flash of the third bulb? Where you have to try and keep the front tires in the beams a extra .100, a whole tenth of a second. Jon Hansen (Hayden Wheels) may know the differences here.
 
A 4 tenths pro tree or electronics car just needs to get out of the beams as fast as possible. So what I meant was consistency of front tires in the stage beams because were in there a long time. If I ever run a 4 tenths tree I would run the smallest possible front tires we could. Less is more, less time in the stage beams the more consistent it will be. Like I said earlier we run 25" fronts bottom bulbing with 18" wheels from Jon

Not saying it cant be done. We won comp eliminator at 74 sportsman nationals running as a b/ed. First year of the econorail. We did it in Kuhl & Olsens last front engine car. Mike has it back now and restored as a top fueler. Only national event that car has won. Learned from that Woody Gilmore car about chassis sag.

Ackerman geometry is set at 1" stagger. But I do add or take out a inch now and then.

Yes sir, the center of our lane is our only concern. Except the last 66' of the race track.
In bracket racing knowing how much time, you and your competitor spent in the last 66'. That's bracket racing

Have fun. Enjoy



 
Title: Re: negatives of FED as bracket car?
Post by: wideopen231 on July 14, 2019, 12:56:43 PM
we have won a lot of events bracket racing, only thing we fight is if the track starts to go away in the later rounds it seems to affect us before the red,door car guys.

The crew chief in me says no problem,just drive the thing. The driver says set it up so its not issue that your job ALBERT! Man those two have always fought !
Title: Re: negatives of FED as bracket car?
Post by: mfracing on August 06, 2019, 06:52:52 AM
Raced mine for 5 years as a bracket car.  Hardest thing for me is to keep the engine temp consistent from round to round, without running any water.  This past weekend, made 7 passes between 8.420 - 8.439 on a track with 138 temp.  Have to work the car and get it setup.  Then its up to the driver to drive the finish line.  Good luck. 

Title: Re: negatives of FED as bracket car?
Post by: tcoupekyle on August 07, 2019, 05:37:08 AM
I found this a very interesting post. Judy thought I'd say that.
Kyle
Title: Re: negatives of FED as bracket car?
Post by: wideopen231 on August 07, 2019, 07:57:04 AM
I am hoping I can control temp with richening and leanout valve I have in system. I have run injected dry motors for years in bracket cars and never had a temp issue,except making sure I have enough. I have a chart that should help me make predictions due to engine temps same as weather changes. Plus holding a cpl is norm and knowing I will have to shed them at finish line.                If temps creep up I just have to know I have 1 or 2 more to shed. If it was easy it would be boring,but cashing checks never boring.LMAO
Title: Re: negatives of FED as bracket car?
Post by: BK on August 08, 2019, 04:25:22 PM
When I bracket raced mine it had a hand brake.
I think a brake pedal would have been a little easier for working the finish line.
Title: Re: negatives of FED as bracket car?
Post by: Curly1 on August 21, 2019, 04:52:18 PM
Chris, you got a trailer now have you ran the car yet?
Title: Re: negatives of FED as bracket car?
Post by: wideopen231 on August 21, 2019, 05:40:34 PM
Got trailer and getting it prepped. Had few issues for manufacture to correct hopefully pick up Friday. Working on generator and ramp extensions,you know these things don't load easy with 175" of it with only 3 inches ground clearance. LOL Lots more to do but that-s all that needed to  run the car. Have full tool trays,tool boxe and extras for running car so really just creature comforts for trailer to this winter. Luckily track is close(18 miles) because Ram 1500 even with Hemi is little lite for 32' trailer,heck running car will be relaxing after driving to track. Got to do few repairs to Dually or the Motor home for longer trips. Once she makes some solid runs I can worry with those.

Going to do some test runs in cpl weeks after these 95* &75% humidity crap is gone. May have to race in it ,but no reason  to test with driver/crew chief /owner in bad mood.. Going over car now dbl checking little things  making final tweaks to keep issue at track  minimal. Figure if can get down T-n-T track I will be good or at least on right track.

Hopefully have something to post by mid September.Will giver me  3  months to play before real winter hits around here.
Title: Re: negatives of FED as bracket car?
Post by: gregm784 on August 22, 2019, 12:51:50 PM
Look up "race ramps", foam ramp extensions. Seem to be popular around here.  Tongue of trailer up in the air and push car in is easiest for me.

You're gettin close!  Time to have some fun! 

i bet a 32' seems heavy on your 1500. :)  i tow my 42' with a 02 2500 Dodge.  Air bags make a wonderful addition...

Title: Re: negatives of FED as bracket car?
Post by: wideopen231 on August 22, 2019, 05:39:02 PM
Yea a  tag will never pull like a goose neck will.  Would have gone goose neck except for motor home I have is best thing for towing. FL70 with 1100 tq will have very little problem pulling trailer regardless what I put in it. Comfort aside of coarse.LMAO  Motor home has been sitting a while and needs some TLC plus computer needs to be flashed to hopefully fix cpl things. Dually needs brakes,paint and AC worked on. How do you know I own it? It needs work.