FrontEngineDragsters.Org Forum
Drag Racing Discussions => Front Engine Dragsters => Topic started by: lake_harley on September 11, 2021, 01:52:01 PM
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I had started a thread titled "Potential FED Build" but on my computer none of the posts past page 6 show up. I have no idea of what happened to them, but I decided to start a new thread now that I have been gathering parts and getting close to starting construction. Below is the most recent post I tried to put on my previous thread, so if you see it duplicated that's the reason. I'll make future posts to this thread since I now consider that I'm actually moving past the "potential" and thinking phase and am about to begin actual construction with what I have accumulated. So......the story continues.....
I got a piece of 1 1/2" X .058 to try a test bend with my JD Squared manual bender. I have a 5.5" centerline radius die for the 1 1/2". Short story, it failed miserably! So, I called a friend who builds circle track cars and is about 1 1/2 Hr. away. He has a Mittler Brothers bender that uses a long radiused "shoe" that follows along with the tube as the die pulls the tubing around the die to bend. It was a bit bigger centerline radius than I would have preferred (7"), but the bend was beautiful! As I counted, there are only going to be 9 bends necessary to follow the S&W FED plans I have, so I went from feeling I would either need to find or buy a chassis that suits me, to being happy that I have the resources to do what I wanted to do all along, and that is to build ground-up. I continue to stockpile a few parts and pieces here and there, so as soon as I get my current project (hot rod Model A Coupe) on the road I'll be in FED mode.
Lynn
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Made a big step today toward getting started on my FED. I had decided to not begin construction of a FED until I got the Model A Coupe hot rod running that I had been working on for a few years. Well....today was a big day. It moved under it's own power for the first time and I actually drove it about 2 miles! Now I can start on a FED with less guilt about starting another project! ;D
Lynn
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Awesome congrats
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THAT'S THE WAY TO DO IT!
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I feel the same way… but ever since I put the dragster together. I could throw rocks at my model t.
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^^^^^I'll try to resist any urge to throw rocks at my T Roadster or the A Coupe. 😉
Lynn
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Hahaha… I don’t throw rocks at mine but I hardly ever drive it and never race it anymore.
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I've made some progress on a few things for my FED and would like to post progress and possibly some photos from time to time but any time in the past I've tried to post a photo I haven't had any success. I've used the "+Attachments and other options" thingie at the lower left of the box where you type in your message, but get hung up at that point. I freely admit to being computer illiterate so perhaps someone can coach me through the process?
Lynn
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You probably need a site like Imgur or similar that you download pic to then you can upload them on other sited. As for coaching,me helping would be deaf,dumb and blind leading the blind.LOL
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I didn't take any photos so if anyone says "pictures or it didn't happen", I'm out of luck. Last week and with a few more hours today I got a chassis jig built, added a centered upright at the "back end" slanted at 20 degrees which I believe will be a comfortable seat back angle, and with a lot of fiddling around and working by myself, I got a centerline established on all 5 crossmembers as well as at the top of my "seat back" tube using a plumb-bob and a chalk-line string. I'll use the slanted upright to hold the shoulder height upper chassis tube in place during construction. Since I expect the centerline sharpie marks to disappear at the most inconvenient time I center-punched the centerline location on each crossmember so I don't have to re-establish it in the future.
The chassis jig is 14' long and 24" wide at the outside. I used 2" X 3" X 1/8" rectangular tube for the side rails, end and center crossmembers and added another 2 crossmembers in the middle of each side from the center using some left-over 1 1/2" X 3" X .065" tubing I had. I'm pleased to say the jig has "0" twist from end to end and has screw levelers in case I need to move it to another location in my shop.
Hopefully, with a little help tomorrow I can mock up the rearend housing location with me seated in my imaginary FED. At that point I should be able to start making some real progress.
Lynn
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Very cool!! Keep us updated
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Did some beginning mock up today but ran into a snag with parts I had accumulated. The tube axle I have has a 2" long kingpin boss, and the stock Anglia spindles I have are only spaced for a 1 3/4" kingpin boss. I'll check the axle's kingpin angle tomorrow but saw that some spindles are advertised as 7.5 degree kingpin inclination and others say 8 degrees. I've kind of settled on Strange spindles since I'll have to buy a pair if they will work with my axle. Are there actually axles made for both 7.5 and 8 degree kingpin boss inclination? Or, did some spindle manufacturers just round 7.5 degrees up to an even 8 degrees in their specs?
I also found a post doing some searching that stock Anglia spindles are made for 10 degrees of kingpin inclination, so even if they would fit the boss on the axle I have the camber would be off by 2 - 2.5 degrees. Could someone confirm? I doubt if anyone makes an axle any more that will work with stock Anglia spindles, do they?
Lynn
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Here is another option (see link) for using your existing tube axle with 2" long kingpin boss. These new "Stiletto Spindles" are for a 2" boss and cost less than the Strange. Plus watch out for the Strange spindles that are adjustable height, I think they are 3" length. You do not want the adjustable Strange spindles for your dragster front axle.
https://secure.chassisshop.com/partlist/19813/
If you prefer to use your stock Anglia spindles, the Chassis Shop sells new Pro Werks axles that have 1.875 inch bosses. Refer to the advertisement with "SPE Axle" in the headings. And before you purchase, contact the Chassis Shop Company to verify your stock Anglia spindles with work with their new SPE axle. Here's the link:
https://secure.chassisshop.com/partlist/15365/
These Pro Werk axles are all 8 degrees. I know you are wanting to build a 60s style dragster. The front tire cross-section for a 60s style dragster is different than a front tire for a modern dragster. Are you familiar with an Avon Speedmaster tire used prolifically on front engine dragsters in the 60s? Their contact patch (more rounded) is different than a modern dragster front tire which has a very flat contact patch with the road surface. Use a new front tire similar to an Avon Speedmaster cross-section and your question of 7.5 or 8 degrees inclination related to camber will not be a factor for your dragster build. Original 10 degree Anglia spindles, I'm not aware of but it's possible.
If it were my decision, I'd prefer using the stock Anglia spindles, they fit the 60s fed theme better.
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KINGPIN INCLINATION and CAMBER are two totally different things. It is possible to have a 10 degree kingpin inclination with zero camber. It is (theoretically) possible to have 10 degrees camber with zero kingpin inclination.
As denverflatheader alluded to the difference between 10* Anglia inclination and aftermarket inclination probably has more to do with tire size and wheel offset. Truth be told either set of spindles is likely to wotk just fine on a dragster. Good luck.
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Thanks for the replies and information gentlemen!
I did some checking today and it seems the information I found that suggested that stock Anglia spindles have 10 degrees of built-in inclination in the relationship of the kingpin and the axle stub itself was just bad, incorrect information.
I first talked with someone at the Chassis Shop about the Stilleto spindles and he said that with shortage of workforce and materials he didn't know when they'd have spindles available. So-o-o...... I ordered a pair of Strange spindles which should install on my current axle with about 1.2 degrees of positive camber. That seems reasonable. Bad news is they probably won't be ready to ship until about the end of the year. No problem.....I have plenty other things to do to make progress! In the meantime I'll talk with a couple friends who have better tube bending and machining capabilities and equipment than I do to possibly build an axle to use my stock Anglia spindles. After all, I have several weeks before Strange is ready to ship. ;D And quoting you, denverflatheader, "If it were my decision, I'd prefer using the stock Anglia spindles, they fit the 60s fed theme better." I couldn't agree more!
Thanks again for the input and info. I sincerely appreciate it!
Lynn
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I'll tell you a funny true story.
My friend and his wife raced altereds. At one point they had a new car built by a prominent local chassis builder. I went over to see it when it was done. He had welded the kingpin bushings in UPSIDE DOWN. I suspect he mail ordered a base axle and when it came in to the shop he welded on the radius rod batwings upside down and when he realized it he just said "F*** it" and swapped the spindles left-to-right. With such a messed up kingpin inclination angle the scrub radius was a mile outside of the tire contact patch. I explained to him he could have an evil handling car on his hands.
Well call me stupid. His wife won two IHRA Modified Eliminator championships with that car.
As a post script to the story she did end up rolling it in the lights. I do not know if the messed up front end geometry was a factor in the crash. I never spoke of the front end mess again.
I guess like the little girl with the little curl "... when it was good it was very, very good, and when it was bad it was horrid."
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Lynn - I would guess you meant 1.2 degrees "negative" camber with solid dragster style axle. I forget myself which direction when thinking about negative and positive camber. My thoughts here, for a race car with independent front suspension, 1.2 degrees positive camber good. For your dragster with solid front axle, it will probably be 0 to 1 degrees negative camber (the top of the wheels tilt inward for negative camber). 0 degrees camber would be best considering rolling resistance.
Drag strips are flat & straight, not like a typical roadway. With positive camber, the wheels (steering) will have tendency to go in direction that has more positive camber on a flat straight road. For example, if your left wheel has 0.5 degree positive camber and your right wheel has 1.5 degree positive camber, your vehicle may tend slightly right.
However, the end result with your 60s style dragster with a skinny front tire like an Avon speedmaster, you will probably not notice any steering difference with a camber range between -1.5 to +1.5 degrees due to the minimum contact patch with the road surface.
p.s. FTF - I've had a few messes in my projects too, some big and some little mistakes, some I laugh about, some not so much.
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I actually checked on + and - camber before I posted and unless I'm thinking wrong about the sum of the angles involved I will end up with a bit over 1 degree positive camber (wheel tops further apart than the bottom). No matter positive or negative I would think any camber could cause a slight pull, right or left, depending on wheel loading and grip on the surface. I do plan to run a rounded tread type tire.
I don't propose to have any answers. I'm just plodding through and trying to learn along the way.
Lynn
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I'd heard story (friend of mine who raced at Lions in Long Beach) on reason dragster front axle had negative camber. As 60s dragsters got longer and longer, plus wheelie bars, engine torque plus the longer chassis flexing when launching would lift and carry the left front tire. The driver could still steer with the right front tire on the ground. Their thought was starting with negative camber, the single right front tire going to 0 degree camber would be easier to steer, versus starting with positive camber and having more positive camber added at launch when the left front goes up and carried for short distance.
Happy Thanksgiving to all.
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Sounds like there's good logic in that idea.
Lynn
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i've always use 10* inclination and 10* caster on all straight axle cars dirt,drag and ice except for fed caster was set at 12* camber varied 0*-neg. 1* alway handled well.
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Still chipping away and making slow progress. I got the rearend and engine jigged up with an alignment bar on my chassis jig. I got the carrier bearings pressed onto my spool today after needing to make tooling for my press to seat them all the way. There always seems to be "just one more step" necessary to get anything done.
I guess I need to buy a dunce cap. I was going to remove my ring gear from the open carrier and didn't notice the giant "L" on the ring gear bolts indicating (thank you Mopar) left hand threads! I buggered up the threads in one of the holes and stretched out most of the bolts before I realized why they weren't loosening up. Doh! So, now instead of "wanting" a different ring and pinion, I "need" a different one. I'd perfectly happy with a used but useable ring and pinion for a 741 case (already have a coupler for 29 spline pinion) and would be interested in 3.23, 3.55 or 3.73 or other ratios that would work. Car is for bracket racing so optimal gear ratio isn't quite so critical. Let me know if you have something and please include price and photo(s) if possible.
Thanks!
Lynn
(573) 788-2574 Home/Shop
(573) 286-3335 Cell
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I got a few other projects finished up (including my ring gear/spool issue from the last post) and now have a window of time to really make some progress on chassis building. I'm starting with the shoulder hoop and will be working from the back forward. I don't think I'll ever see the need to have my car certified since all I have in mind is bracket racing at unsanctioned tracks, but I'm pretty much following S&W plans as well as construction info from an AHRA rule book, which appear to be copied, from what I've seen, from NHRA. Remember I'm building a 10+ second 1/4 Mi. car but will only be running on potentially 3 local 1/8 Mi. tracks.
My understanding is that the chassis construction regulations/requirements pretty much stop at the mid-plate, or possibly at the front of the engine. Is that accurate? Believe me, I don't have anything crazy in mind, but does a builder have flexibility on chassis construction forward of the engine or mid-plate?
Lynn
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You got that right, only the cage and cockpit area matters. What comes to never needing a tag and only 10sec comments, I strongly recommend a second thought. Trust me there will be a day you want to go faster, we all have been there done that. There will also be a day when you try to sell the puppy. Hundred times easier with cert. And the list goes on, do it by the book at once. It's a lot easier now than upgrade later. 7.5 sec spec for mild steel is not that bad. It will cost you just as much time and money to fab an unsafe backyard hackjob as it does the other way, when you are starting from scratch.
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^^^ X2
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Thanks for the replies. I am building per chassis plans and using materials that should pass certification but I don't expect I would ever need it. You've answered my question and that is that certification pertains to only the cockpit/cage area. I thought I had read that somewhere but couldn't find it again.
Thanks.
Lynn
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On specs. I bought a copy of certification spec for 35 bucks. Cheaper than having to change something later on. JMO
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Got some tubing in today and to the naked eye it looked a little thinner wall than what I ordered. I de-burred the edge and checked the wall thickness. Yikes......010" - .011" under the "advertised" wall thickness! My long-time steel supplier said the steel industry is really a mess these days and I'd say there's no doubt about that. He's going to check other tubing in his stock to see if some is on spec. On the bright side I won't be needing that particular tubing for at least a few days, so I can continue some modest progress with what I have on hand.
I've been jigging up some of the cockpit area and bending tubing. Got far enough today to actually tack weld a few pieces together. Woo-hoo!
Lynn
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I had to go up a gauge size to insure the tube I used met NHRAs spec of .120" min for mild steel.
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Got some tubing in today and to the naked eye it looked a little thinner wall than what I ordered. I de-burred the edge and checked the wall thickness. Yikes......010" - .011" under the "advertised" wall thickness! My long-time steel supplier said the steel industry is really a mess these days and I'd say there's no doubt about that. He's going to check other tubing in his stock to see if some is on spec. On the bright side I won't be needing that particular tubing for at least a few days, so I can continue some modest progress with what I have on hand.
I've been jigging up some of the cockpit area and bending tubing. Got far enough today to actually tack weld a few pieces together. Woo-hoo!
Lynn
4130 or mild?
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Mild steel. It's for forward of the mid plate and ordered .095", which my junior engineer calculations came up to being about 3+ times heavy enough to handle the stress on my relatively short (145") WB car. I expect a delivery of .095" DOM tube tomorrow to replace the w-a-y thin walled tubing I got first, and I'm confident the DOM will be within spec.
I'm using all .120" DOM for the cockpit/cage area which I've been putting together as time permits over the last couple days. I've checked every piece of tubing I've used so far and it's all checking .121" to .122" wall, so I should be good on the .118" requirement. My pile of tubing is starting to resemble the back half of a FED! :)
Lynn
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OK...Let's see if I have this photo posting figured out.
If a photo should magically appear, it's the progress on my FED chassis as of the end of yesterday, Friday. I must say, it was pretty exciting to see the chassis actually starting to look like something! Chassis is all tacked, but there is still a lot to do before welding time. I settled on 145" wheelbase.
FWIW....I'm the ruggedly handsome gentleman posing shamelessly for the photo. 8)
Lynn
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looking keep, it up
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Awesome!! Looks super cool
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Looking great!
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Nice!
If you do as good a job on the body as you did on the frame it will be great.
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Thanks gentlemen! I appreciate the kind words. It's certainly one of those projects that will/would be easier, and quicker, the "next" time than it was the first time. :)
Lynn
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Looks good! Both the frame and the fabricator ;D
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You are indeed a ruggedly handsome individual; the chassis is looking good as well. Which welding process are you using?
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;D Just my good looks should intimidate a lot of the competitors! ;)
Welding will all be done with TIG. I'm not certified, but consider myself a competent welder. Since it's DOM I could use MIG, but with TIG I feel I can see the puddle and penetration of the welds much better.
Lynn
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Cars looking great nice work
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As I was fitting the chassis together the SBC fuel pump cleared the top frame tube (Yay!), but when i added the vertical near the front of the engine and the diagonal along the side of the engine the pump interfered with fitting the diagonal. I have considered cutting and building in a 1/4" to 3/8" "relief" to the inner side of the tube for fuel pump clearance but fear compromising the diagonal. The offending diagonal is 7/8" diameter.
I'd love to do fuel injection at some point and a belt or cam drive pump might be in the future, but for now I'd like to keep it simple, carbureted, and use a diaphragm pump if possible. I really don't like the thought of an electric pump in the event of something going really wrong during a pass.
I'd like to get some input from the voice of "the experienced" here. ;)
Lynn
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Electric fuel pump is fine for carbs. If you are concerned about the safety you may consider doing like I did. I have a manual shut off in rear of the car but I also have and electric one that I can shut off master power from inside in an emergency. When I get to the track I turn the main power on in back of car and leave it on until I load it up at end of the day. During the day I use the interior master to shut down power. That way I am not jumping in and out of car to turn on power.
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Nothing wrong or unsafe with electric pump. Lots of safety options available. Kill switch in cabin is a must, theres roll-over switches that cut the power if upside down etc. I'd rather do that way and leave the tubing alone.
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Granted the pump question was still quite a way down the road in construction but I like to get things settled in my mind as I think of them. Thanks! A electric fuel pump would certainly be the simple solution with a "master" kill switch to cut all power easily in driver's reach is the way to go. From the master switch power would then go to the fuel pump and ignition. For the master in the cockpit I'm thinking either a switch with a large red "push off" button or maybe one of those "aircraft" switches that have the flip cover that could easily be slapped down to kill all power? I'd also use a battery master switch at the rear of the car and assume that should be a heavy battery disconnect cabled all the way to the back and then go forward to the starter main lug, correct?
Lynn
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Thats looking great congrats.
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When the FED I drive was purchased it had a Master kill switch on the back, but it is on the negative side with the battery forward of the engine . We installed a constant flow solenoid right next to the battery with an aircraft style on/off with the driver. Master Kill key on gives negative, switch closes the solenoid which then powers up the car, tach light comes on to tell me it's powered up. Hit the master kill
or drivers switch and no power right at the battery.
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I do something similar. It once saved a LOT of people from being injured when I was semi-conscious in a run-away race car.
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Rat....just to make sure I understand correctly, you have a solenoid capable of handling all of the power to the car and it is powered on by a "master kill" switch in the cockpit? If I'm reading right, that master kill switch is wired in series with a kill switch at the back of the car (or somewhere for emergency kill)? Opening either switch (off position) kills all power at the battery cable. I'm curious if there's a reason to put that solenoid on the negative rather than the positive connection? FWIW, my battery will also be forward of the engine.
If I got that all pretty much right, I like the idea that big battery cables wouldn't have to be run to the back of the car and then back forward. That would seem to negate some of the benefit of the master kill switch(s).
In my case, I'll have a starter and wonder if the cable going to it would also be included in the switched (via solenoid) circuit, or would the main lug on the starter still be powered?
Sorry if I seem dense, I just want to clarify what I think I'm reading.
Lynn
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I use a "Flaming River" master switch in the cockpit on the left dash, none behind me. Works great. I have a 2 gauge double shielded positive cable to that switch. My switch employs a mag kill switch also. I can take a shot of it if needed.
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Hi Lynn, Hopefully I have been able to attach the wiring diagram.
The Master Kill Switch is on the negative battery cable and mounted at the back of the car next to the tail light. The drivers kill switch is in the drivers switch panel and supplies the negative for the solenoid and is grounded independently of the Main Kill Switch. Both must be closed for any power to to go past the solenoid. When both are closed the positive battery cable to the starter is live, all other fused small positive wires draw form the starter.
The only live wire to the back of the car is for the tail light and works independently of the drivers kill so you can't accidently turn if off.
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Hi Lynn, I added the wiring diagram to my previous post for you. Tried replying and was getting an error message. Anyways hope the diagram answers your questions. Cheers
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NHRA rulebook requires Master Kill switch on the positive cable.
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Does anyone have photos of examples of steering arms that bolt to stock Anglia spindles to hook up the drag link? I have a couple ideas of how/what to build, but I'm open to other ideas.
Thanks
Lynn
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BTW....if your computer is working the same as mine on this forum you may have to hit reply to even see my latest post, and to reply.
Lynn
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Started welding up my chassis today. Got about 25% done in about 2 3/4 hours. Did 1/4 of the diameter, starting at the center of a joint, welding outward to the radius of the coped joint. I don't know if that makes sense, but I got a tip on how to do the welding and that method seemed to make sense. I did "mirror" welds, alternating sides to even out or cancel warping of the chassis. When I had my fabrication business going we regularly used a similar method. It seems to have worked out again since I can still freely rotate the alignment bar going through the mock-up block into the 3rd member. The next session planned will be another ~25%, and at that point I'll probably pull the engine block since the chassis should be fairly "locked" at that point. Eventually I'll roll the chassis side-to-side and even upside-down to finish welding to avoid welding standing on my head. I do much better welds when my position is more natural.
Lynn
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Got another ~25% of the welding done on the chassis yesterday. Alignment bar through the engine and into the rearend still rotates freely so apparently the chassis isn't being warped during welding. ;D Just short of 6 hours TIG welding at this point. Seems I walked around the chassis about 100 times to do the welding evenly from side to side!
Lynn