FrontEngineDragsters.Org Forum
Drag Racing Discussions => Front Engine Dragsters => Topic started by: DragsterNut on September 23, 2014, 11:26:54 AM
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I currently have a MW torsion bar front end with a 1960's front axle and spindles. The wheels are "creitz equipment" spoked but are 16". (only found one tire to fit). The car is too heavy and looking to cut weight out. I'm thinking of converting to a solid axle bolted to the chassis with light weight spindles and new 17" aluminum rims. The other issue is that the car pulls the front end about 6" then spins badly. Sometimes goes up in smoke. So I'm thinking that removing a few pounds off of the front may help the front carry a bit longer, easier. I'm looking for thoughts on what would be strong enough but yet ligter than what I have now.
Car specs:
1625 lb with me...Way too heavy. 80% on rear
30 x 10.5's
4:11 gears
1.76 low gear
6700 stall - leave at 5500
352 ci Ford Cleveland
injected alcohol
best et with this combo so far is 5.04 in 1/8th 1.200 60'
Any thoughts would be greatly appreciated.
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I don't think that taking what will probably be a minimal amount of weight off the front end is going to make a major difference. Even if you save 50 lbs you really need to be thinking about the whole dynamic of the car. What is the wheelbase, is the torsion bar working or locked up, how rigid is the chassis itself, do you run a wheelie bar etc? A little more info and some photos would be a big help.
Roo
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Bring your car up to Central Illinois Dragway for test and tune on October 3 and stay and race with us on Saturday. Great traction and plenty of shut down. You can probably learn a few things from our racers group. I know I have. It is the last race of the season. George
Check us out: https://www.facebook.com/nostalgiaquickseries
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The torsion bar is working. The wheelbase is 184. The wheelie bar is 48" long made of 3 members and single wheel. I took braces out of it to make it as soft as I can. Before the converter was loosened up it would dead hook and hit the wheelie bar very hard. Now it spins before getting to the wheelie bar which is set at 6" off the ground. Also running 9psi in the slicks. I will try to attach pics, however the ones that I took are too large. What do you do to shrink them?
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This is what I use
http://www.resizeyourimage.com/
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George, Thanks a bunch for the invite. I would live to come up but I broke a bunch of polylocks and ordered jesels. They wont be here in time. I would love to visit next year. I hope to get things lined out so we can hit all of the NDRL races and others also. I'm looking forward to learning thats for sure.
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Roo, Here are a couple of pics. See what you think. I can post more if there are some details you would like to see. Thanks for your help.
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Hello DragsterNut, welcome to this site and FED racing.
Here are my thoughts, I think you are hurting your self running the 30x10.5 tires, the 10.5 tires are designed for 2,000-3,000 # door cars , so they have stiffer sidewalls than what dragsters want. I would at least lower the tire pressure, we run 5 3/4 to 6 # on my JrFueler running 7.0's and 189 mph. What most of the fast JF teams use is 31x12x15 GoodYear D2585, but GY is not making them now, so try the newest Hoosiers of the size. The GoodYears weigh 22.6 lbs each and that's less rotating weight. Does the 4.11 give you the RPM you are looking for going thru the finish line ? If your motor can stand more RPM, then but a 4.33, or 4.56 in it because the lower gear will allow the tires to hook up sooner. We changed to a 1.68 trans gear so we hit the tires softer. Also try leaving at a lower launch RPM. Your stall seems close, but the best is to find out what RPM range your cam/ motor wants to run. Then get a converter that will work in that range. Case in point if your motor will be happy starting at 7,000 then your motor is struggling from 6700 to 7,000. Also what size is your converter, if it's 9" or 10" to have too much flywheel effect, besides more rotating weight. Most of the fast JrFuelers run 7" .
As far as losing car weight, 1'st thing I would do is take that heavy battery out, and convert to a remote battery pak. Again most JF guys use two batteries in series to get 24 volts so it will will spin the motor enough to get the mag working and over come our 15-17 to 1 compression. Our remote 24 volt battery pak weighs 10 lbs total. Alky runs better with higher compression and motor heat. We leave the start line around 180-200°.
BTW, I can covert your wheels to 17", just send me your 16" and I'll clean-up/ polish your early Ford Crietz hubs and make spokes for 17" rims, chrome or alum. And of course I have 17" rib tires.
Feel Free to call my cell anytime, 805-444-4489 with any questions.
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JrFuelHayden, I'm running 9 to 10 psi and the tires wad up and shake to the point where you can hardly see. When I get it back together I was going to play more with tire pressure but I'll try lower as well. I have not had a good 1/4 mile run with the new motor but it looks like I will have to drop a gear ratio with the 30" tire and maybe 2 gears with 31". I'm currently goin thru. the traps at 7800. I need to be at 8400 to 8500. What king of rpm drop do you see at the gear chenge? I feel mine drops too far (8500 to 6200). I attached a data log. My converter is a 2-piece 8" that I made myself. I've played with 6 or seven stators to get the stall where the motor likes it. ~6500 to 6800 seems to be ok. 60' times wer better with lower stall (5800) because the car would dead hook and bend the wheelie bar as it tried to flip over. The higher stall get the motor in peak torque and now spins the tires before it touches the wheelie bar. I'm looking for the best scenerio but I admit I'm a bit lost. I'm going to got to remote start battery and install a new mag. I would like to conver the front wheels to 17" and will give you a call at the end of the season. Does anyone make lightweight modern spindles for that hub? I want to get rid of the bellcrank steering and run the sterring rod out to the spindle to make room for centering up the fire bottle and reduce backlash.
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What I think might be going on is you had too much tire spin with your higher stall because you were in or close to your power range, but not enough tire. Same thing with your higher launch rpm. Also with your wheelie bar at 6", your front end is building up momentum and hits the wheelie bar and unloads the slicks, because it's kinda shocking/ upsetting the chassis. We run ours at about 2", and let the wheelie bar flex to more gently push the front end down. Look don't get crazy about adding more weight to your front end. Some racers are afraid the extra weight will slow the car down, but I've gone faster after adding another 20 lbs to the front. i know some fast guys that have over 90 lbs bolted to the front. Don't get me wrong lighter cars do go faster, but when you can't steer the car or you keep hitting your wheelie bar hard, ADD weight.
I checked a website that can figure speed from tire size, rpm, and current rear gear, with your 30" 4.11, 8500 rpm combo, your 1/4 MPH would be 184.58, which really doesn't match your 1/8 numbers. So if you changed to 4.56 with your 30" tire, your speed would be 166mph. But I think a better combo would be 4.56 with 31x12x15 slicks = 172 mph. And if your motor isn't making enough HP to go 172 mph the bigger gear will help you get your motor in a better power range. Remember bigger gears multiply power. That combo with a looser converter and more traction should get you closer to the performance you're looking for. BTW if you are going to buy some gears you don't really need the "pro gears" because your dragster is lighter than a heavy door car. As I said before GoodYear is not currently making their light weight [ 22.6lbs] D2585 31x12x15 tire, but if you want I guess I could sell you a used set I have [ right now I have 5 sets, two mounted, one on 11" wheels and the other on 12" wheels]. Retail on new tires is $362 ea plus shipping, I could sell you a pair for $200 pr, plus shipping.
Thank you for posting your computer graph, it helps me see what is going on with your car. I pulled up a couple of my runs on my RacePak to have something to compare. What I pulled up was one of my Hemi engine runs thinking it might be closer to your Ford.
We ran 7.123 , 186 mph, with my 4.56, 31x12x15 on 12" wheels at 6 # pressure, launch at 6100 rpm, converter flashing [ stall] at 8100, shifted at 9200. The true stall is figured by looking at what the engine RPM drops to right after the shift, your looks like 6800 rpm. Again if you can talk to your cam guy to find out what RPM range your motor should make good power. The very best is to get your motor on a dyno, and if you should decide to work with a converter company, they would like a dyno chart. BTW I highly recommend A-1 Performance, I don't know of any fast JrFueler running anything other than an A-1. Ya I know I'm always refering to JF, but I thought that would compare to your NA alky burning FED.
I also noticed on your computer chart your driveshaft speed has some big ups and downs, that is were your tires are spinning and then hooking-up. I always look at driveshaft speed to figure tire pressures, up looking for less speed [ more traction] or pressure down for more tire speed. I try to run a peak between 2200 to 2500 rpm at about .3 to .5 into the run, with hopefully only one dip, I also will change launch rpm to get better tire speed.
Looking at your race car picture, can you change your weight bar bolts so you could mount your fire bottle there. You may not have to change your steering bellcrank and maybe spend that money on gears, tires, converter work, which I think will get you a better "bang for your buck". Same thing goes for changing your front wheels to 17", unless your tires are looking bad. To change to lighter Anglia type spindles, you may have to change your early Ford style front axle. I'll check to see if anyone makes Anglia spindles for early Ford axle, which also means your current hubs will not fit the Anglia spindles. Again, think about your best "Bang for your Bucks".
The best performance gain will be in changing your power train.
Feel free to call my cell, 805-444-4489, I sure hope this all helps you get "un-lost"
Jon
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I am with Jon on the wheelie bar height, as he notes you are probably getting a "run" at it and the shock back through the chassis when it hits may be part of your problem. But, if you are only lifting the front wheels six inches or so that should not be happening unless you have a lot of travel in the torsion bar deal or your chassis is arching a lot.
Although it should not affect your chassis dynamic I would suggest getting rid of the bellcrank for another reason. When the front end articulates with the current package you will get a toe variation due to the links swinging in an arc. You can fix the toe deal by either ditching the bell crank or using it to steer one wheel and then connecting the spindle arms with a single tie rod. You will still get a little bump steer with that deal but at least the wheels will be parallel.
The motor is only 42" out in Mark Vaught's car and we run around 75 lbs in the nose to reduce the car's tendency to rotate too quickly at the hit. We also run the bar at about the same height as Jon suggested--it is 6 foot long. At a race at Route 66 last month where the track was tight lowering it about 1/2" stopped the car from rattling the tires violently-we run the Goodyear comp elim style tire.
Roo
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I agree with John and Roo on the wheelie bar height . I run mine at 2 1/2 to 3 inches . I think that you have too much air in that tire . I believe that the tire should squat at the hit and then as the car moves forward should come up on the tire quickly . It sounds like you are spinning into a shake . Lowering the tire pressure will help this . I would not worry about the weight right now in fact you might want to put a little more on the front till you get it going a to b . This 10.5 tire has come up a few other times and most of us have not tried them yet . That 12x31 Goodyear is the best tire you can put on your car . Keep us posted on your progress . Bill
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Man there is a ton of info in this thread. Jon and Roomans have given me few thing to think about on my car. A few questions,but going to do in another thread so as not to Hi jack this one or interrupt the flow of info. Oh yea good info in yours too Bill don't ant anyone feeling left out.LOL
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Just my thoughts, I would cut the car behind the motor plate & add enough to put the motor at 48 -50 out. Moving the motor will help fix a few issues with the launch & add wheelbase to a short car. There are a lot of places to drop pounds off a dragster without going to a mag.
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Just my thoughts, I would cut the car behind the motor plate & add enough to put the motor at 48 -50 out. Moving the motor will help fix a few issues with the launch & add wheelbase to a short car. There are a lot of places to drop pounds off a dragster without going to a mag.
An awful lot of work involved in what you suggest Van, and having the motor that far out also requires a chassis that works well in the front half. Also the 10.5 tire might not be up to the task with that package. Adding that much to the chassis will mean that the frame rails are closer together at the mid plate due to the taper in the frame, everything between the motor and the rear end would need to go to space the uprights correctly, new mid plate and possibly front motor mounts depending on the driveshaft angle. If the lower rail angles down from the rear end to the mid plate how low will it be with the extra length? New driveshaft and shield, body panels etc. If Dragsternut can't do the job himself there would be a big bill at the chassis shop.
Jon has it, right " Again, think about your best "Bang for your Bucks".
The best performance gain will be in changing your power train.
Roo
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I have had 3 cars that were fixed that way, One Frank (the old man) RCS did - another Dave CCE did & I did the last one myself. Never regreted doing any of them that way. I do understand what's involved, thats what I enjoy doing.
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Thank you all for the input and advice! I think for now I'm going to get the Jesels installed, lengthen and lower the wheelie bar, get the gear ratio right to turn 8500 thru. the traps with the 31x12 tire. I may play with the 10.5's a little because I have them but I see the 31x12 is probably where I will end up. As for cutting the car up, I did that once before to get to this point. Not a problem but my plan is to learn what I can with this car and graduate to a real Jr. Fuel car in the future. I've attached a pic of the old car and the new car.
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Here is what the car looked like before the new motor and smaller tires due to Good Year discontinuing the 30 x 11.5 I had.
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Thank you all for the help and advice. Over the winter I put in a new A1 7 inch billet aluminum conveter, 4.56 gears, 12 x 31 Hoosiers, new Weld 2.0 rims, and set the wheelie bar at 1.5 inches. Last night at Gateway I finished all of my licence passes endind with a 7.80 at 170. 1.140 60 ft. No violence at all. The converter is stalling 7500, shifting at 8800. The converter ratio at the trapps was 1.05. Still spinning too much but getting closer. I didn't want to experiment too much. I just needed to get my licence passes in.
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We were just talking about tires in another thread ! Is the Hoosier you are running a new tire ? I had heard that they were working on A new Junior Fuel tire . Sound like you are heading in the right direction with your car !
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Thank you all for the help and advice. Over the winter I put in a new A1 7 inch billet aluminum conveter, 4.56 gears, 12 x 31 Hoosiers, new Weld 2.0 rims, and set the wheelie bar at 1.5 inches. Last night at Gateway I finished all of my licence passes endind with a 7.80 at 170. 1.140 60 ft. No violence at all. The converter is stalling 7500, shifting at 8800. The converter ratio at the trapps was 1.05. Still spinning too much but getting closer. I didn't want to experiment too much. I just needed to get my licence passes in.
Nice going Bud, especially with the 335 ford. 3 cools for you 8) 8) 8)
Luke
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Thank you all for the help and advice. Over the winter I put in a new A1 7 inch billet aluminum conveter, 4.56 gears, 12 x 31 Hoosiers, new Weld 2.0 rims, and set the wheelie bar at 1.5 inches. Last night at Gateway I finished all of my licence passes endind with a 7.80 at 170. 1.140 60 ft. No violence at all. The converter is stalling 7500, shifting at 8800. The converter ratio at the trapps was 1.05. Still spinning too much but getting closer. I didn't want to experiment too much. I just needed to get my licence passes in.
Congratulations. Can you share with us the weight of the car accross the scales; rod length; and who did your heads? You might consider shortening the ram tubes when they get near the top of your 'Bang for the Bucks' list. McKray built a 406 Cleveland-Head Ford (tall block, long rod) back in the mid 1990s that was promissing. That car was sold to a SWJFA participant who in turn sold it to the Frye Bros of Ohio. They had a crash and a trailer fire that greatly affected their racing.
Thanks
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Congratulations. Can you share with us the weight of the car accross the scales; rod length; and who did your heads? You might consider shortening the ram tubes when they get near the top of your 'Bang for the Bucks' list. McKray built a 406 Cleveland-Head Ford (tall block, long rod) back in the mid 1990s that was promissing. That car was sold to a SWJFA participant who in turn sold it to the Frye Bros of Ohio. They had a crash and a trailer fire that greatly affected their racing.
Thanks. The car is 1650# with me. Im 218. The rod lenghth is 6.125. I did all of the head work. I'm no expert but have a local mentor who is. These are not the good heads. I have a set that I'm working on for the next motor that have many more hours in them. The tubes are shorter thsn in the old pic. Here is a pic of the new motor. I've also invested in a dynamic cylinder pressure analyzer from TFX that also shows the intake and exhaust pressure waves. I have done some preliminary dyno work with it. I'm still learning about what to do with what it is telling me.
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We were just talking about tires in another thread ! Is the Hoosier you are running a new tire ? I had heard that they were working on A new Junior Fuel tire . Sound like you are heading in the right direction with your car !
This is not a new tire as far as I know. These were out at least for 2 years. I was looking at them 2 years ago but was not smart enough to know I needed them. The folks here got me on the right track. My car was so violent with the 8 inch converter and the old 10.5 tires that I couldn't make more than 3 passes without severe back issues. Now it is so smooth it is somewhat boring.
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what is the tire part # ?
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what is the tire part # ?
18225C11
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Hi Drag:
Once again way cool with the 335. Love those engines and great to see one in a FED.
So am I seeing high port heads in that photo?? Did you do them or are they older heads? Are you using them again or going to an aftermarket on your new heads?
Thanks for posting on your gr ogress . This is way fun to read about.
Luke
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Hi Drag:
Once again way cool with the 335. Love those engines and great to see one in a FED.
So am I seeing high port heads in that photo?? Did you do them or are they older heads? Are you using them again or going to an aftermarket on your new heads?
Thanks for posting on your gr ogress . This is way fun to read about.
Luke
Thanks for the complements. I did these heads myself. The new heads are done the same way. I'm not aware of any aftermarket iron heads that are in production any more. CHI used to make an iron version of the 3v head. They quit and I haven't found any for sale. I have a complete 429ci Windsor smallblock with c302 heads that I may drop in sometime and run the 7.50 pro NDRL class. For now my goal is to run 8.00 and sqeeze as much out of this old Cleveland as I can.
I bought my first fed when I was in highschool (wanted a fuel altered, MOM said NO). I put a real stock Boss 302 in it and ran 9.50's. Then I built my current car from scratch in 2005 with a stock 351c and ran 8.50's but burned up parts right an left learning the whole way. Wanting to get into porting, I built a flowbench and started on a set of Cleveland heads for the car. Needless to say, I'm still learning... These heads on the car flow 315 and I have a new set that flow 330. My goal is 360 or higher. I've thought about designing a new iron head and having it cast(something that would flow 420 or so). I've laser scanned the stock head and have played with it in solidworks for a bit. I had to stop for a bit and kill some cancer. But now its game-on!
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You didn't say what length your car is. If it is a long wheelbase car you need to go to as narrow a front end as you feel comfortable with while still staying legal. This makes the car easier to steer then ad some weight to the front. Then try launching it at 4000 instead of 5500, you'll find it having real control of traction at the moment of power attack and it won't take any time after the start to get to where it usually runs, but, these things should help. Additionally, it is always a good idea to remove the front suspension on these cars. You can weld on the axle if you include two braces that are welded. This keeps the lift of the front axle setup from promoting chassis lift. You mite not think it can do much of that, but, on our old Top Fuel car it was all we had to do to prevent another terrible wheelie up on the chutes, and change that to a controlled carry of the left front wheel just an inch off the track for 100ft or so. Remember the less power you have and the higher you stall the more likely you will lift the wheels. Good luck.
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I had a quick look at the Hosier page and it shows the 31 x 12 tyre 18225C11 as being a medium/firm compound with a stiff sidewall. Lot of tyre talk here of late.
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You didn't say what length your car is. If it is a long wheelbase car you need to go to as narrow a front end as you feel comfortable with while still staying legal. This makes the car easier to steer
What a crock of ........
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Hi Drag:
Once again way cool with the 335. Love those engines and great to see one in a FED.
So am I seeing high port heads in that photo?? Did you do them or are they older heads? Are you using them again or going to an aftermarket on your new heads?
Thanks for posting on your gr ogress . This is way fun to read about.
Luke
Thanks for the complements. I did these heads myself. The new heads are done the same way. I'm not aware of any aftermarket iron heads that are in production any more. CHI used to make an iron version of the 3v head. They quit and I haven't found any for sale. I have a complete 429ci Windsor smallblock with c302 heads that I may drop in sometime and run the 7.50 pro NDRL class. For now my goal is to run 8.00 and sqeeze as much out of this old Cleveland as I can.
I bought my first fed when I was in highschool (wanted a fuel altered, MOM said NO). I put a real stock Boss 302 in it and ran 9.50's. Then I built my current car from scratch in 2005 with a stock 351c and ran 8.50's but burned up parts right an left learning the whole way. Wanting to get into porting, I built a flowbench and started on a set of Cleveland heads for the car. Needless to say, I'm still learning... These heads on the car flow 315 and I have a new set that flow 330. My goal is 360 or higher. I've thought about designing a new iron head and having it cast(something that would flow 420 or so). I've laser scanned the stock head and have played with it in solidworks for a bit. I had to stop for a bit and kill some cancer. But now its game-on!
Call Dennis Young for the availability of Aussie heads @ 714-321-6133. Tell him a friend of McKrays gave you the number.
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Call Dennis Young for the availability of Aussie heads @ 714-321-6133. Tell him a friend of McKrays gave you the number.
Thanks. I will call him. Does he have iron heads?
The car is 184" WB. 1214lbs on rear, 338lbs on front.
Update on my 7.80 pass. When I got home I read the logger closer (had to pack up quickly as my wife had enough) and found that on the last "all-out" license pass 1 plug was closed up all the way and 2 others were "re-gapped" to .010 for me. I checked the bearings, no issues, just not enough piston to plug clearance. So, I'm expecting more out of 8 cylinders. Also, I took 100 lbs off the car over the past 2 weeks. Now down to 1552 with me in it. I can't wait for the NDRL race at Gateway.
Thanks again to all of you for the help.