FrontEngineDragsters.Org Forum
Technical => Spud Miller's Cave => Topic started by: msundstrom on August 08, 2015, 10:09:37 PM
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Spud,
I have been using 1 qt. toluene per 5 gallons of 30%, how much on 50%. Is there a formula?
Thanks
Mark
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I've found that 1 quart is plenty in a 5 gallon jug regardless of nitro percentage. More won't really do much extra.
Spud
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I have a question Why do you mix that with Nitro ?
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Ah, I should have 'splained :)
Detonation control. Adding toluene to a nitro mix reduces/eliminates the tendency for it to explode before the spark happens. It's a stabilizer. If you run high compression (~13:1 or higher) and want to run any nitro at all, detonation can be a problem. Putting one quart of it in a 5 gallon jug of your mix generally eliminates the problem.
Having said that, you can't go crazy with ignition timing and compression ratio and expect magic just because you have toluene it in. But it makes a huge difference.
Spud
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wow...did not know that
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what will it do if I add it to alcohol
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It won't do much for you. It doesn't act as a stabilizer on methanol to my knowledge.
Nitromethane is shock sensitive...as pressure rises it'll decide to explode without a spark. The toluene helps stabilize its shock sensitivity. Makes it settle down and wait for the spark.
Spud
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Thanks all you guys, I'm always learning interesting stuff here...
Just wondering, are the Top Fuel guys allowed to add toluene? Or their tuning is some much in control that they don't need or care for toluene? Does toluene hurt power?
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how bout fire out the pipes...will toluene increase that if I add it to methanol
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Top fuel guys can't run anything but the approved fuel. Toluene would fail a fuel check.
Toluene doesn't seem to hurt power when replacing methanol.
The Surfers (Top Fuel back in the 60's) knew about toluene. They ran very high percentages of nitro (compared to everyone else) and hardly ever worked on their car between rounds...no damage. Every one else was fixing their melted parts and they'd skate board around in the pits and watch them all work. It annoyed the xxxx out of everyone :)
An interview I read years ago with one of them said someone on the team knew a chemist and got turned on to toluene as a way to stabilize the fuel. I think they were running 97% nitro and 3% toluene (or something like that) and had amazing results. That was one of their big secrets to success. Maybe someone on here knows of that interview and can point us to a link to read. That's where I learned about it and I've used it for years. Only in the last two years have I done away with toluene and methanol altogether (100% nitro). It always worked well for me!
I don't think it'll make any more or less flames...
Spud
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thank you spud
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Surfers also ran 6 to 1 CR
If you want more flame with nitro, cut the nitro with acetone
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WOW, Spud 100% ? When we ran anything over 95% in our 1964-69 all iron 301 ci SBC JrFueler it was inconsistant with funny looking plugs. But then again my combo was abit different than most of the West Coast JrFuelers, with our 110 pump [ Kent Enderle always told us that pump is too big for what you run] also we ran 55° on the crank [like the west coast guys] , but we had another 20° in the mag, and a 3.70 rear gear, when the West Coast guys were running 4.10's. It was difficult to push start. We did win allot of races in the midwest, and ran 191 mph in our high gear 900 lb car in 1965.
My hats off to you for running 100% of the good stuff !
Jon, JrFuel Dragster Association, and Hayden Wheels
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Thanks Jon.
It runs consistent low 6.80's @ 200 in the heat. Same plugs all weekend. All iron 392" small Chevy. Stack injected, Enderle 990 pump, 63 degrees, 2.91 rear gear (not a typo), powerglide. Weighs 1700 lbs at the starting line and spools up to 6800 RPM at the finish line. Haven't had the heads off in 6 years. Rings and bearings are now on their 8th and final season. Planning to go through it and put a new crank in it this winter.
Spud
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All I can say is "Remarkable longevity" Spud!
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Well, I'm not saying lots of luck hasn't been involved :)
Also, I haven't been doing 6.80's for that many passes. The last 8 seasons have mostly been 6.90-7.20 runs at 198ish. That's one reason I'm going to do some proactive replacement this winter. It's just a matter of time before something fatigues and fails and that would wipe me out for quite a while. My rods and pistons are fancy stuff (BME and Ross) but that's it...the crank is a Scat.
New crank, new roller lifters, have the rods resized, wrist-pins, rings, bearings...run it another 8 years, right? :o
Spud
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Spud, that's great to hear that the One Hot Chili Pepper Front Engine Dragster has been busy in action. I followed your write-up from the beginning since you started restoring the car in 2000. I kept reading it over and over, drooling while watching those small videos (GoPro was not dreamed yet). Superb job Spud!
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Spud what kind of compression do you run?
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Static compression ratio is 11.2:1.
Spud
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I'm in awe Spud. What you have done with the OHCP is remarkable.
I've only done some 15 passes with my digger (half those were 1/2 track) and the engine has been rebuilt 4 times! Maybe I'm doing this all wrong lol.
Currently running a 468 donovan, 110 pump, your SM5 (8 amp), and 3.7 gears. 8000 RPM
I've been thinking about your success........maybe a 2.90 gear to get the revs down further, and a bigger pump to make up for the lower pump speed (my 110 enderlie now has a blank main and 180 psi), and install a Supermag +.
I'm carrying an extra 200 lbs weight over your digger, but that shouldnt hurt too much.
Cheers mate
Graham
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I have a question Why do you mix that with Nitro ?
How does that effect the percentage? Or better question how do you get exactly percentage you want when you add Toluene?
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Toluene has a slightly higher SG (specific gravity) than methanol and much lower than nitro.
To keep it easy, I generally mix my nitro batch up and add a quart to a 5 gallon jug (about 4% by volume). The percentage and SG drops very slightly about like if you added a quart of methanol. When you're real concerned with percentage, I would keep track of the SG before and after the toluene addition. That difference will remain pretty much a constant because the SG of methanol and toluene don't change drastically like nitro does. If you test or make changes to your percentage later, just figure that difference in and you'll be very close.
Spud
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Thank you for the information. I run the 5.00 NE 2 class and use a few percent of Nitro to run right where I want it to. Even .5 or 1% makes a difference. I usually do not need over 4% so mix is critical.
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Thanks Jon.
It runs consistent low 6.80's @ 200 in the heat. Same plugs all weekend. All iron 392" small Chevy. Stack injected, Enderle 990 pump, 63 degrees, 2.91 rear gear (not a typo), powerglide. Weighs 1700 lbs at the starting line and spools up to 6800 RPM at the finish line. Haven't had the heads off in 6 years. Rings and bearings are now on their 8th and final season. Planning to go through it and put a new crank in it this winter.
Spud
That is truly impressive and great durability.
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Spud, I did try the Toluene 1 quart to 5 gallons of 20% mix and it worked very good. Thank you,
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Spud, I did try the Toluene 1 quart to 5 gallons of 20% mix and it worked very good. Thank you,
Bruce Did you pick up much with the 20 percent ?
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Spud, I did try the Toluene 1 quart to 5 gallons of 20% mix and it worked very good. Thank you,
Bruce Did you pick up much with the 20 percent ?
I just tried it on the dyno, before it would not even make a pull with 20% Nitro, Added the Toluene and it made a good clean pull and picked up about 65 HP and lots of torque. Normally I just run a few percent as needed to fine tune it to run the 5.00 but nice to know I can run up to 20% now if needed.
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When we ran Ed Hill's BFH drag boat (World Record Holder several times over . . . ), we would run 9 oz of Methanol and 9 oz of Benzine in a 5 gal jug of 100%.
Big told Ed to do the Benzine deal . . . .
I know . . , super carcinogen these days, back then also, I guess!!!
Can't even buy it now.
Always by volume (broke the floater . . . ) but the fuel check beaker was where the 9 oz came from.
Also . . . , here is the chemical proof of what does what in Nitro (courtesy Bob Higginson - Surfers Face Book Page.
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Spud, I did try the Toluene 1 quart to 5 gallons of 20% mix and it worked very good. Thank you,
Bruce Did you pick up much with the 20 percent ?
I just tried it on the dyno, before it would not even make a pull with 20% Nitro, Added the Toluene and it made a good clean pull and picked up about 65 HP and lots of torque. Normally I just run a few percent as needed to fine tune it to run the 5.00 but nice to know I can run up to 20% now if needed.
That's very impresive did you change your timing at all or jet ?
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Spud, I did try the Toluene 1 quart to 5 gallons of 20% mix and it worked very good. Thank you,
Bruce Did you pick up much with the 20 percent ?
I just tried it on the dyno, before it would not even make a pull with 20% Nitro, Added the Toluene and it made a good clean pull and picked up about 65 HP and lots of torque. Normally I just run a few percent as needed to fine tune it to run the 5.00 but nice to know I can run up to 20% now if needed.
That's very impresive did you change your timing at all or jet ?
The numbers looked good one the Dyno. Moved timing up from 28* to 34* and it would not run. We fattened it up some and it did worse. At 20% with the Toluene it like same tune up as pure Methanol on my motor. Your mileage may vary.