FrontEngineDragsters.Org Forum
Drag Racing Discussions => Front Engine Dragsters => Topic started by: Blind Mule on February 07, 2013, 08:16:35 AM
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Just wondering who's been quick in a short car and it not be a terror to drive? Like 150 and shorter! What is an average wheelbase on a FED? :-\
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Just wondering who's been quick in a short car and it not be a terror to drive? Like 150 and shorter! What is an average wheelbase on a FED? :-\
Another good question for the Technical area of the board under Roo Man's Room
This area is more of a social are??????
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I ran 156 mph at Lions Drag Strip in 1959 with 147wb They are a hand full, you can over correct real easy. and to answer your other question FED were govern by how long was your garage and some forgot that and when they put the Door down they would haft to cut out the door and box it so they could get the Garage Door all the way down.
Thanks For the Memories
Bud.
I went the other way, cut a hole in the back wall and in the winter whenit is in the garage the front wheels are out on the back porch, in the summer when it is in the trailer the wall plug standing in the corner is inserted into the all and you cannot tell from the garage or back porch there is a hole
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Cool solution;)
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LOL Thats funny there and I always wondered if anyone beside me would go to that extreme to keep a car they love. I had a 245" RED that I was going to have the front go into the spare bedroom when winter came and it had to come out of the trailer. Luckily according to my wife we moved before winter hit and it fit in the new garage, but I had the sawzall ready. She kept asking, Are you really going to do that ? Now what cylinder heads are on this motor ?
(http://www.frontenginedragsters.org/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=146.0;attach=147;image)
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LOL Thats funny there and I always wondered if anyone beside me would go to that extreme to keep a car they love. I had a 245" RED that I was going to have the front go into the spare bedroom when winter came and it had to come out of the trailer. Luckily according to my wife we moved before winter hit and it fit in the new garage, but I had the sawzall ready. She kept asking, Are you really going to do that ? Now what cylinder heads are on this motor ?
(http://www.frontenginedragsters.org/forum/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=146.0;attach=147;image)
This is a Pontiac, they are modified Kaufman D ports. I have a set of Kaufman high ports waiting to go on my next "big" blower engine
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Very nice..
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Glenn - I watched your video. Your car scoots along. Is that an electronic distributor in your engine. If so, are you using it or going to magneto for your next motor?
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Glenn - I watched your video. Your car scoots along. Is that an electronic distributor in your engine. If so, are you using it or going to magneto for your next motor?
It is a MSD distributor with a MSD 6AL-2 box, and a MSA Blaster coil. It will remain for this engine and the next engine will have a Mag already purchased from Spud.
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I'm going to try out a magneto this year, test and tune in May and if all goes smoothly, race in June.
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I'm thinking my current set up will work fine for this engine, bt am under the impression that a Mag will be needed for the next one
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It depends on the type of chassis you want to build. If you go with the a-tipical narrowing front that gets really narrow up front you're in for trouble. Funnycars are 125 inch and except for the outragious power they will steer and handle very well. If you want to run a short wheelbase it is going to be stiff and wider, and if you want to be able to steer it run funnycar front wheels and tires.My fed is 127 just finished in 2011 and with the stouter tires on the front makes it drives and steers like a dream. Check it out at the Nostagia Nationals at Denton TX april 6. The XL-Kites car, see yea. Mildsteel.
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I guess I need to give more info is 150in. considered a short wheelbase ::) I don't know on a FED :-[ I plan on a narrow front!
Randy
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Randy we raced this car in the 70's 140 w.b. Ran high to mid 8's at 150
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Was it pretty stable or a hand full? ;D
Randy!
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I guess not too many . . . I'm building a 137" with a 355sbc, 6-71 on alcohol.
Hope to make 700-800hp. See how that goes.
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Randy I really don't remember having any handeling problems with that car.
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ALL SWB CARS ARE ILL HANDLEING.........
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ALL SWB CARS ARE ILL HANDLEING.........
bullcrap!
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Roo your my HERO! ;) I will find out (I hope)!!!!!
Randy
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ALL SWB CARS ARE ILL HANDLEING.........
bullcrap!
Thanks, needed to be said, although I wish you had chosen a different word..
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GEE WONDER HOW THEY GOT THE REP AS I,LL HANDLEING, WHAT ABOUT THE OLD ATLEREDS AND SUCH..... WATCH THE SWB YOUTUBE VIDEOS. JMO
BOB
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Hey Glen any reason you did not change word in his post? bullcrap maybe. Just wondering
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Hey Glen any reason you did not change word in his post? bullcrap maybe. Just wondering
Ok, your right, he is a paying supported, and a good friend, I was showing favorites, I have corrected the offending word.
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GEE WONDER HOW THEY GOT THE REP AS I,LL HANDLEING, WHAT ABOUT THE OLD ATLEREDS AND SUCH..... WATCH THE SWB YOUTUBE VIDEOS. JMO
BOB
I alway's kind of thought the older altered's with short wheel bases were ill handeling because of such a high center of gravity.
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Have to agree with Bill. Just look as some old pics. Front end up cpl feet motor almost out of frame.Center of gravity must have been 3 feet off ground.
I know we all here love the old cars but face it some of the engineering left a lot to be desired. Heck the rollcages where below thier heads in lots of cases.
Lets not forget the tires of the day where junk by todays standard.
Short wheelbase will never be as stable as longer wheelbase cars.But they are awsome to watch and fun to DRIVE,you know thats the thing that drivers do,unlike the long wheelbase rear engine car where your more a passanger along for the ride. That being said I'm building longest wheelbase I can becuase being consistent and beating some RED butt is the goal for my car.
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Something a lot of guy's tend to overlook when they are building a car is how fast or slow the steering is . This can make a huge difference in the way a car handles and drives . As an example my son's RED 240in wb has short steering arms very quick steering . It is very touchey at speed . You can't move the wheel much at all . Now my fed has slow sreering very lazy . Ilike it that way .
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If memory serves me well. The steering ratio was one of the reason first attempts at RED didn't work well. I think Garlits decided that after first run or two in his history making RED.
Bill you running 5 or 6 inch arms on frontend? Got to order spindles next week . and then its body fab time.
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For me 147 wouldnt be short. Mine is 96 inch wheelbase. (fits in the back of my truck. )
It runs like it is on rails. Goes straight as an arrow. I have even made a pass without touching the steering wheel (Dont ask. It is embarrasing) I have had two other rail pilots run the car. Both have commented how straight it runs. I dont think squirrley comes simply from a short wheelbase. I believe the set up plays into it big time. I spent a lot of time setting mine up. I made the front axle using handi van spindles. Alignment is 3 degrees positive caster. 1/2 degree pos camber and 1/8 toe. My car has Ackerman designed into it as well. The faster I go the better it tracks and there is no correction required once you release the brake. I dont run up in the 150mph bracket (yet;>) but nothing so far would indicate that would be a problem. Funny cars are short comparatively speaking and that doesnt bother them.
Don
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one of the problems with handling with increased speeds is due to the front end being lifted due to airflow under the chassis .
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Ok here is something to think about . Two fed's both cars weigh 1600 lbs one is 160 w.b. the other is 200w.b. same motor same distance away from rear centerline . The shorter car will have more weight on the front wheel's ! What dose this have to do with anything ? I am not really shure just felt like typing something .
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Ok here is something to think about . Two fed's both cars weigh 1600 lbs one is 160 w.b. the other is 200w.b. same motor same distance away from rear centerline . The shorter car will have more weight on the front wheel's ! What dose this have to do with anything ? I am not really shure just felt like typing something .
Ok, I'm tired, was supposed to do club racing last night and it was called off as I was leaving the house (rain), I was up at four and at the swap meet grounds to prepare at five, it was 53 degrees at two PM, I was supposed to do test and tune after the swap meet, but was just cold, and I was just to tired.
I do not think you are correct, the front and rear tires will carry the same weight regardless of the wheel base.
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No expert here but I have used a friends electronic scales on all four corners on our FED. Moving weight around makes a difference . We put the Optima battery inside the nose piece ( in front of the wheels).
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No expert here but I have used a friends electronic scales on all four corners on our FED. Moving weight around makes a difference . We put the Optima battery inside the nose piece ( in front of the wheels).
Correct, moving weight around, forward and backward in the chassis would effect weight bias.
This is not the question raised.
Weight remanins the same in two different chassis, rear axle center remains the same, forward engine placement remains the same, the difference is the length of the chassis (distance between the front and rear wheels) Distance between the front of the engine and the rear wheels remains the same. Weight on all four wheels would remain the same regardless of the length of the chassis. Move the engine forwar and that would change.
I think??.
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Ok here is something to think about . Two fed's both cars weigh 1600 lbs one is 160 w.b. the other is 200w.b. same motor same distance away from rear centerline . The shorter car will have more weight on the front wheel's ! What dose this have to do with anything ? I am not really shure just felt like typing something .
Ok, I'm tired, was supposed to do club racing last night and it was called off as I was leaving the house (rain), I was up at four and at the swap meet grounds to prepare at five, it was 53 degrees at two PM, I was supposed to do test and tune after the swap meet, but was just cold, and I was just to tired.
I do not think you are correct, the front and rear tires will carry the same weight regardless of the wheel base.
IMO if front end is farther out it will have less effective weight especailly under power,that just simple physics(leverage).The rear wheels have more levarge on front end while trying to pick it up.
I grabbed front end today and raised the front up about a foot without a lot of effort, I know on our funny carI could not have done it and motors are close to same distance.Now Im not small guy but Im not powerlifter either.
I would also think the more effective weight underpower would help handling if anything.
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OK. Now we are getting somewhere.
When I am in good traction and if I run my tires too low my car will pull the wheels on launch so the tail or bottom of the cage smacks the ground. Of course the first instinct would be some sort of wheelie bar but that tends to hurt traction a bit since it has to to some extent unload the tires the amount of pressure the wheelie bar/s are taking. The alternative is to make the chassis longer without increasing weight. In my case since the car is a bit overbuilt (1 5/8" mild steel .120" min DOM ) that is possible. However That is not what I wanted so I elected to run the tires no less then 9 psi which deals with the problem for me nicely.
Many of the early Altered and such handled badly because of the high center of gravity and a lack of understanding of Automotive suspension design. Many very short road cars will do over a buck fifty and handle like a dream. It is not the wheelbase that is the problem. Or lets put it this way , It is entirely possible and practical to make a short wheelbase car , even a rail handle well. Air does not much enter into it if it is a open tube frame car (no body frward of the motor) Some of things done to rails of front suspension would make even a good sports car squirrely if it was set up that way. They are all done with good intentions but sometimes excessive is excessive. Extreme caster angles , no ackerman , fast ratio steering arms and zero toe sometimes take the suspension or alignment into extreme areas where it is probably not wise to be. I know not everyone will agree but it is part my trade by profession so you will excuse me if I hope. Sometimes things are just done that way because the other guy did it that way. Not a good enuf reason I think. The two fellows who also drove my car are used to longer cars. One drove a successful RED (225 inch) for years. (I supplied his engines. Actually I am happy to be able to say ENGINE) The other runs a 160 inch FED with a injected BBChevy currently. Both offered the comment without any asking on my part. They were surprised. If you check the ride along video you will see that even in the traps there is not any sign of ill handling. It is rock solid straight. I have see lots of video if those 90 to 120 inch cars running straight and strong back in the day. I have also seen some bad ones but generally altereds not rails as I recall. Bottom line is does the front axle know or care how close it is to the rear? Probably not would be my opinion. It cares about its alignment.
Don
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Just one more thought to throw into the mix. In a front engine dragster we set behind the rear wheels, so the drivers weight also needs needs to be added to the equation.
When we weighed my car on a set of four corner electric scales the weight on the front wheels was 10 pounds lighter after I had gotten into the car.
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The whole premise of the question was the only difference between the two vehicles was the wheel base.
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If overall weight is the same and the motor is in the same place the long wheelbase car will have less static weight on the front wheels because they are further from the engine mass which is usually the biggest chunk of weight in the car. Think about a big kid and a little one on a teeter-toter (see-saw). The little kid needs to be further away from the pivot point to counteract the big kid's weight.
As Pipe Dreams commented, he added his weight to the car but the front end got lighter due to the fact that his body mass was pretty much all behind the rear axle centerline.
Taking an extreme example, if the front wheels were moved back to a point in line with the front crank pulley the static weight on them would be higher than on the rear wheels even if you clipped the frame off and made the car lighter overall. It is all about where the center of mass is related to the contact patches.
Roo
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If the total weight of the vehicle does not change and the weight distribution on the rear wheels does not change how can the weight of the front wheels change?
See below?
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That is the point, the weight on the rear wheels will increase as the fronts are moved further away from the center of mass. The CG will move back relative to the center of the wheelbase and will add to the amount carried by the rear wheels. Try it with a 2 x 4 and a pair of bathroom scales. Put a brick on the 2 x 4 near one scale and then move the other scale incrementally further away from the brick--overall weight will stay the same but the bias will move towards the scale with the brick closest. (The 2 x 4 should be sitting on something that will allow it to pivot somewhat in the longitudinal axis.
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Good discussion and excellent explanation/analogy by Roo. It explains the basic evolution of all out dragster chassis design. Wheel bases got longer so they could optimize three things... put more weight on the rear, control wheel stands (wheelbase X front end weight) and minimize overall car weight. Very generally, the longer cars have the POTENTIAL to put more power to the ground earlier in the run and that translates to quicker ETs.
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Great discussion guy's ! A lot of good input from everyone !
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Hey guys NHRA rule book allows 300 inch fed in T/D. Would make one awsome looking car,bad part your but would be at mph when tires where at finishline.
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I believe the engineering concept as relates to wheelbase, with weight being equal, is "polar moment of inertia". Swing a short stick in a small arc, versus swinging a much longer one of the same weight. The longer one takes more effort to start the swing, and to stop it, since mass, even though it is less mass, is farther from the center of rotation. In our case, the differential centerline, or thereabouts.
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Our car is a 120 inch wheel base. !00% original. Has run 150 and 9.50 Handles perfect. Punch in tin god dragster on google or bing. Click on the HAMB website[ first one that comes up or click on images of tin god dragster]
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Is this it? http://www.jalopyjournal.com/?p=20333