Author Topic: fuel tank to fuel pump elevation  (Read 9071 times)

Offline Rat

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 65
    • View Profile
  • Your Best Time: 8.585 @ 154.55
  • Your Engine: Stack Injected All Iron 392 Chrysler Hemi
  • Your Track: Willowbank Raceway, Queensland, Australia
  • Your Vehicle: Colthup Bros FED
  • General Location: Australia - East Coast
Re: fuel tank to fuel pump elevation
« Reply #15 on: August 04, 2019, 04:52:06 AM »
We had one of our Nostalgia meets today and trialed a check valve fitted to the output side of the shutoff going to the BV.
It worked a treat as is was much easier to start. :)

Offline noslin

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 259
    • View Profile
  • Your Best Time: 0.00
  • Your Engine: none
  • Your Track: none
  • Your Vehicle: none
  • General Location: west coast
Re: fuel tank to fuel pump elevation
« Reply #16 on: August 04, 2019, 11:47:57 AM »
We had one of our Nostalgia meets today and trialed a check valve fitted to the output side of the shutoff going to the BV.
It worked a treat as is was much easier to start. :)

what will this do?   did you pre-fill the hose above the check valve. how many psi did you set it for.  is it a high speed valve if that matters? after installing it did you notice any difference in your fuel psi?

Offline noslin

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 259
    • View Profile
  • Your Best Time: 0.00
  • Your Engine: none
  • Your Track: none
  • Your Vehicle: none
  • General Location: west coast
Re: fuel tank to fuel pump elevation
« Reply #17 on: August 04, 2019, 12:05:54 PM »
here some pics of our BV.  We'll still use this shutoff on the new pump.









Offline Rat

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 65
    • View Profile
  • Your Best Time: 8.585 @ 154.55
  • Your Engine: Stack Injected All Iron 392 Chrysler Hemi
  • Your Track: Willowbank Raceway, Queensland, Australia
  • Your Vehicle: Colthup Bros FED
  • General Location: Australia - East Coast
Re: fuel tank to fuel pump elevation
« Reply #18 on: August 06, 2019, 05:00:47 AM »
We have not yet had a chance to check the pressure but I believe the one way has a 2 psi spring. Once fitted and the first start up completed it needed very little squirt bottle to fire up.
We have the shut off directly into the pump, then fitted the one way onto the end of the shut off. The one way has an o ring seal so it both holds fuel in the feed line to the BV and seal the pump from draining back. So far so good. Will be checking pressures in the coming weeks and will post when I have some numbers.

dreracecar

  • Guest
Re: fuel tank to fuel pump elevation
« Reply #19 on: August 09, 2019, 04:56:48 PM »
Personally, I prefer the Enderle BV, with the main jet in the BV, that way the pump compresses the fuel into the BV and then bled off. Right now (as I am looking at the pics) you are bleeding off fuel before it gets up to the BV, almost like having a vairiable pump gpm depending on the jet size and a possible source for air bubbles. To me having the main jet there is like trying to pump up a tire with a hole in it.  I guess anything can be made to work if flogged enough, but the enderle style is the most popular for a reason, and those few that run a hilborn hat/injector, usually convert to an enderle BV.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2019, 06:12:16 PM by dreracecar »

Offline noslin

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 259
    • View Profile
  • Your Best Time: 0.00
  • Your Engine: none
  • Your Track: none
  • Your Vehicle: none
  • General Location: west coast
Re: fuel tank to fuel pump elevation
« Reply #20 on: August 09, 2019, 06:11:36 PM »
Personally, I prefer the Enderle BV, with the main jet in the BV, that way the pump compresses the fuel into the BV and then bled off. Right now (as I am looking at the pics) you are bleeding off fuel before it gets up to the BV, almost like having a vairiable pump gpm depending on the jet size and a possible source for air bubbles.  I guess anything can be made to work if flogged enough, but the enderle style is the most popular for a reason, and those few that run a hilborn hat/injector, usually convert to an enderle BV.

oh, thank you for the info.  this is stuff we dont know and appreciate your input.  Enderle checked out the 110 and said there isnt a problem with it. SO.. its interesting what you noted there about air.  searching for things, i wondered if maybe that high speed might be open after a run or something like that.  we were wondering about the loop line maybe creating an air pocket too with only a pound or two (if that) for fuel pressure at startup.

i got the waterman today, will get some flow numbers on it next week and ill tie the loop into the return to the tank.  Ill tell my buddy about it.  He has an old K-valve that he picked up with another hat he purchased.

ty
dean

dreracecar

  • Guest
Re: fuel tank to fuel pump elevation
« Reply #21 on: August 09, 2019, 06:18:42 PM »
Most enderle systems rum the hy-speed after the BV going into the distribution block and bleeding pressure there, again I like the pump just pushing fuel up to the BV and not bleeding anything away before it gets there.

  Top right is the main fuel inlet, top left is the main jet port plug, bottom left is the secondary idle bypass for when the BV is closed and when the BV is opened the idle port is closed and the main jet fuel return travels thru it, and the right lower is the hy-speed can which is just a spring/shim loaded poppet and it screws into a jet holder and then continues to the fuel distribution block.   In any case, the BV always sees full pump pressure/volume, and the regulation is done after that
« Last Edit: August 10, 2019, 11:44:17 AM by dreracecar »

dreracecar

  • Guest
Re: fuel tank to fuel pump elevation
« Reply #22 on: August 10, 2019, 12:20:37 PM »
Maybe hard to see,  but here is both secondary and hy-speed lines going back to the return side of the fuel shutoff and from there into the inlet side of the pump.  Its what has worked very well for me.

Offline noslin

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 259
    • View Profile
  • Your Best Time: 0.00
  • Your Engine: none
  • Your Track: none
  • Your Vehicle: none
  • General Location: west coast
Re: fuel tank to fuel pump elevation
« Reply #23 on: September 29, 2019, 02:26:53 PM »
Thanks Bruce for posting up the pictures, your help and  knowledge is very much appreciated. One great thing about this forum is being able to get answers to things.  Being novices both of us want to know the 'why' and 'how' things happen or moreover to be educated about everything even though its frustrating along the way.   You go in being naive and not knowing and you take what is given to you as being 'correct' and its not, or is it.. then you start to look at everything else thinking its the problem.... or is it.

We made it back around to trying to get things sorted out.  We think the issue is with fuel psi during startup at the Hilborn BV which leads to lack of fuel psi at the hat distribution block and thus not staying started.   The motor has always fired instantly, its just getting it to stay started is the whole issue still.  I put a fuel pressure sensor before the BV and i have one at the distribution block in the back.  We tried to start it Saturday and still have issues but its getting narrowed down to couple things.  One is spring pressure on the main and second might be the poppet psi settings for main and maybe idle? 

Backing up a bit and again to the intro of this post, we thought there was an issue with the rebuilt 110.  Enderle checked it out and said it was fine.  Nevertheless, I got a new Waterman with equivalent pump PSI to the 110 and thats what is on there now. Two things that were changed are first, the loop is deleted and now returned to the tank and second, the main return was moved from the pump up to before the BV so there is fuel in the line to that point at least.

Nevertheless, one question we have is as main jet size increases how much change/increase does the spring pressure need to be increased by? The main is set at 5psi and never has been changed.  The 110 was worn out when first setup at i think 11.2lbs psi.  when rebuilt, it was i think 13.2lbs so the main jet needs to be increased. it was a 140 i think at 11.2lb pump and it was set at 165 to be safe with the rebuilt 13.2lb pump.  When we made the pass in July with the 165, the EGT's were right in the ball park with the 165 main.

Reason for asking about spring psi increase on main with jet increase is with the 140 jet and old 11.2 gpm pump setup we really didnt have any issue with the motor starting and stay running.   when we put the rebuilt 13.2gpm 110 on, the spring wasnt increased in the main so there was no fuel pressure for fuel to pass through the BV is our thinking.   What clued us into thinking about this is, with the Hilborn BV the leak is a lot lower then for Enderle BV and the butterfly's are closed a lot more.  ie; 38% and like 5k on the hat. only way we could get it to run was to increase (about 65% and 8k @ hat) the BV leak a TON allowing more fuel to 'dribble' by and that is not correct as the EGT's were WAY fat.  So back to the question about main jet spring pressure increase versus jet size increase.  Premise is to increase fuel line psi to force fuel passed the BV at idle.   

Looking at one of the first logs with 11.2gpm psi pump setup, we had about .8x psi at idle at the hat distribution block.  I didnt have a sensor setup before the BV so i dont know what that was.  Yesterday i added a sensor before the BV, we had an average of about 9psi and only  about .2x psi at the hat distribution block.  As mentioned, with 11.2 psi pump setup we had .8x psi roughly.  that leads back to spring psi vs jet increase in main jet???

Everyone runs the Enderle setups, with this hat we cant without major mods (i think).  Looking at the front of the hat, this hat has provisions on the left side only for a BV.  Looking at the hat, All Enderle stuff is on the right side of the hat.  Really dont want (and wont)  mod the hat so stuck with the Hilborn BV and this hat for now.  Its a bitch'n hat and would really like to use it.

So, I have a few questions.
  • is there a ratio or percentage to increase main poppet spring psi as main jet increases/decreases?
  • should the idle poppet psi be less then the main psi on a Hilborn BV setup.  Main is BEFORE the BV, not after.  Main is at 5psi, Idle is at 12psi.  To me the main should be higher then the idle, otherwise why have an idle bypass.
  • for those with the Hilborn BV setup and main before the BV, what is the main spring psi set at. are you blown or injected?
  • For those that run hat and port nozzles, at what PSI do you have your port nozzles flowing fuel?   1psi, 50psi, or and why
  • for those that have logged fuel psi at the distribution block, what idle fuel psi are you getting.
  • for those that log fuel psi at the BV, what PSI are you showing before the BV at idle & RPM?  is the fuel psi sensor before the main or after the main poppet.  eg; is your main at the BV or off the pump.  if main is at the BV then is fuel sensor before or after the main but before the BV.

To me, I think there isnt enough psi at the BV to force fuel past the BV at start/idle. Further, with the main before the BV and the idle off the BV why have a low main psi (lower then idle psi).  that doesn't make sense.  I would think hypothetically if idle was 5psi and main was say 7 or greater would make more sense.  to me, the main is in play and dumping fuel before it even gets to the BV, or at least reducing the psi at BV to get fuel back to the distribution block.   if im understanding things correctly, the idle poppet is out of play after about 30-40 degrees of BV rotation.   Idle should be main fuel bypass i would think .... at idle, not the main.

Thank you
Dean
« Last Edit: September 29, 2019, 02:31:59 PM by noslin »

Offline noslin

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 259
    • View Profile
  • Your Best Time: 0.00
  • Your Engine: none
  • Your Track: none
  • Your Vehicle: none
  • General Location: west coast
Re: fuel tank to fuel pump elevation
« Reply #24 on: September 30, 2019, 09:25:46 PM »
so today we took another stab at it.   Jeff talked to a person at Hilborn a bit and we think were headed in correct direction.  he said main spring between 2-5lbs, the idle (i guess secondary) at maybe 6 or so.  set bv at 50-60 and butterflys at 6k.  The guy also said the same thing that Spud told him on the phone before and that is before starting, open the hat and turn it over till fuel dribbles out the nozzle in the hat.  then go ahead and start. 

long story short, were about 58% guessing (need to test as was getting late) on the bv and 8k on the butterflies which got us in the ball park of idle about 2100.  the egts are higher then we would like so we messed with the secondary and it wants to be guessing about 4-5lbs.   

we need to get a better guage or something to test the lower psi numbers as we really dont know where its at becuase of the leak down tester i have.   the low numbers i think start at 4 lol so its a guess.

we will mess with it maybe Wednesday or Thursday again and try to fatten it up a bit.   

interesting deal, i would of thought that the main would need to be bigger then the idle.  the way it sounds though, there is so much fuel flowing in the system it needs to be open soon to bypass it all.   the secondary gets us in the ballpark with the idle egts.  I wonder with it at 12lbs maybe it was too much fuel then at start guessing....    were bypassing more fuel now and its starting easier.  The other thing too were finding is needing to leave the bottle on it a little longer till it takes hold.   

looking at the fuel psi, the bv psi is about 7-8lbs and the hat distribution is actually showing a little vaccum, about -.25lbs psi fuel.


dreracecar

  • Guest
Re: fuel tank to fuel pump elevation
« Reply #25 on: October 01, 2019, 09:26:14 AM »
Unfortunatly, you are asking questions that no racer (except pro level) looks at, so its hard to get answers, and since you have a Hilborn which regulates on a different  princible then Enderle, I suggest again that you stop guessing and send the system in to get it set up and flowed, once this is done, the only jetting will be for altitude by swaping out the main for every  1000' change from baseline, just bolt it on and leave the rest alone