Author Topic: Fire system  (Read 7702 times)

Offline tcoupekyle

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Fire system
« on: October 10, 2017, 04:36:22 AM »
This is probably a dumb question but.... when is a fire suppression system necessary. 

Offline noslin

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Re: Fire system
« Reply #1 on: October 10, 2017, 06:17:08 AM »
not a dumb question.. there are not any.. more then likely others thought/wondered the same thing.

id like to know too.   i know for 7.0 pro you need 2, for NE1 you dont need one.. so is it MPH or ET driven and or is it fuel/power adder driven?

ty
dean

Offline rooman

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Re: Fire system
« Reply #2 on: October 10, 2017, 10:22:58 AM »
From the NHRA Heritage series rules:

Junior Fuel:
Fire extinguishing system must meet SFI Spec 17.1. Minimum 5-pound, NHRAaccepted
fire extinguishing system mandatory. System must be divided with one
nozzle on driver’s side and one nozzle on engine.

A/Fuel:
Fire extinguisher system meeting SFI Spec 17.1 mandatory. A minimum 20-pound
system required with a minimum one nozzle aimed at the driver and one at the front
of the engine.

7.0:
Fire extinguisher system meeting SFI Spec 17.1 mandatory. Minimum 20-pound
or more NHRA-accepted fire extinguishing system mandatory on all front-engine
open-bodied alcohol-burning supercharged cars. Activation cables must be
protected in bellhousing and engine area. Activation cables and distribution
tubing must be steel. Must be installed per manufacturer’s specifications. Carbonfiber
bottles prohibited.

Nostalgia Eliminator (NE I, II and III)
Permitted; must be securely mounted. See General Regulations 9:3.

And here is the 9.3 section of the rules:
9:3 FIRE EXTINGUISHER
An onboard fire extinguisher system is mandated under certain Class Requirements. In
other classes, it is recommended that each contestant and/or his or her crew have a
loaded, serviceable fire extinguisher and a fire blanket in their possession, carried in the
tow vehicle, race car, or otherwise available for immediate use. Dry chemical or CO2-type
extinguishers, 2 1/2-pound minimum size, are recommended. When installed in a race car,
must be mounted in a secure manner; use of flip-open-type clamps prohibited.
When required, Nostalgia Top Fuel, Nostalgia Funny Car, fire extinguishing system must meet
SFI Spec 17.1 and be installed and utilized per manufacturer’s installation requirements.
For all other vehicles, onboard fire extinguisher systems must be manually controlled Cold Fire
302, Fire X plus, Halon FE1211 or 1301 or FM200, or F500, and mounted per manufacturer’s
specifications with the primary nozzle(s) directed in an attempt to protect the driver. Other
agents, classified on the EPA SNAP list as Acceptable Total Flooding Agents (Feasible for Use
in Occupied Areas) and NHRA accepted, may be used. Bottles and lines must be mounted
above the bottom of the adjacent framerails. Fire bottle activation cables must be installed
inside framerail where cables pass engine/bellhousing area. Bottles must be DOT-approved or
meet SFI Spec 17.1 and permanently mounted (no hose clamps or tie wraps). In the case of
more than one bottle, each bottle must have its own distribution tubing and nozzles. The use
of bottles, nozzles, or tubing other than that recommended by the manufacturer is prohibited.
Upon activation of the system, the contents of the bottle(s) must be totally discharged; partialdischarge
systems prohibited. The bottles must be mounted in such a manner that should an
explosion or failure of any mechanical component of the vehicle occur, the bottles will be
protected from flying parts. When installed in/on a race car, must be mounted in a secure
manner; use of flip-open-type clamps, hose clamps, tie wraps, snaps, etc. prohibited. They
should be protected from excessive temperature and mounted rigidly to the vehicle. Remote
cables must be metallic (plastic or plastic-wrapped cables prohibited) and installed so they are
protected in the event of an upset or collision. Follow the manufacturer’s recommendations
regarding installation, especially on bend radius, and protection from crimping or kinking. All
fire systems must use steel lines, steel or aluminum distribution nozzles, and must be
equipped with a pressure gauge. All bottles must be identified with a gross loaded weight
figure. It is the responsibility of the competitor to weigh the bottle prior to each event.

And if you read all of that it is once again a bunch of totally ambiguous BS that quite often contradicts itself. Every big show funny car on the planet uses plastic wrapped cables (the grey spiral bound Morse style) and nowhere in the NE section does it spell out that blown cars are required to have a 20 lb system despite the fact that tech inspectors are requiring just that because the regular NHRA rule book does actually state that "All front engine, open bodied supercharged or turbocharged (gasoline of methanol) cars must be equipped with an SFI-rated 20lb system". And what that means is that ANY car that fits those criteria must have a 20 lb system despite the fact that it may only run in the 10's or slower
 In the 7.0 call out it says that the cables must be protected in the bellhousing area while the 9.3 call out specifies that they must be in the frame rail so there is more chance for different interpretations there as well.

A lot of the wording in the Heritage rules has been pulled straight from the regular rule book and that makes for some classic rulings like the one calling for an anti displacement collar on the steering column:
" A secondary steering shaft stop must be installed to prevent long steering shaft from injuring driver in case of frontal impact (i.e., collar or U-joint pinned at crossmember, bracket, etc.)."  If the steering box gets pushed back in a front motor car I think that you are probably toast anyway.  ::)

Roo
Yeah, I am from the south--any further south and I would have been a bloody penguin.

Offline Paul New

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Re: Fire system
« Reply #3 on: October 10, 2017, 01:21:21 PM »
I do not have my rule book in front of me but for a blown alky FED 7.50 and slower I believe 5lbs is all they require but 7.49 and quicker 20lbs

Offline rooman

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Re: Fire system
« Reply #4 on: October 10, 2017, 02:43:34 PM »
I do not have my rule book in front of me but for a blown alky FED 7.50 and slower I believe 5lbs is all they require but 7.49 and quicker 20lbs

I just checked the current book and it now states:
"All front-engine, openbodied
supercharged or turbocharged (gasoline or methanol)
cars running 7.49 seconds or quicker must be equipped with an
SFI-rated 20-pound fire system."

If you want to look it up it is on page 39 (Section 20) of the 2017 rule book

Of course it appears (or I could not find it) that it does not state what is required in the slower classes, only that it is permitted.

While researching this I noticed that in J/F and A/F the rule states that there must be one nozzle for the engine and one for the driver but in 7.0 you can do whatever you want. Also, so a NE 1 car can have a blown alky burning hemi and a funny car body, the same as some 7.0 cars but a fire bottle is not mandatory, just permitted.

Roo
Yeah, I am from the south--any further south and I would have been a bloody penguin.

Offline wideopen231

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Re: Fire system
« Reply #5 on: October 10, 2017, 03:06:02 PM »
Not rule related. Anytime there is chance I could get burnt.  I have two 5lb bottle on my car and its bracket deal mainly. Around here bracket cat means big tires in the back, small tires front, diaper under engine and entry money.
Relecting obama is like shooting right foot because it did not hurt enough when you shot left foot

Offline noslin

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Re: Fire system
« Reply #6 on: October 10, 2017, 04:13:01 PM »
concerning nhra rules and race organizations.  a buddy was going to do a air cooled vw related 'series' or create an 'organization'.  in conversation with a nhra tech (well known on west coast), he said whatever the 'series/organization' mandates is what rules (rules over nhra).  meaning as example under heritage NE rules is suggested but not mandatory, that would over rule nhra regulation as that is a race series/organization with their own rules even though they race at nhra sanctioned tracks.  i would imagine though at a non-series type race.. just say TNT or bracket racing then it would default to nhra rules.

Offline rooman

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Re: Fire system
« Reply #7 on: October 11, 2017, 05:00:15 AM »
concerning nhra rules and race organizations.  a buddy was going to do a air cooled vw related 'series' or create an 'organization'.  in conversation with a nhra tech (well known on west coast), he said whatever the 'series/organization' mandates is what rules (rules over nhra).  meaning as example under heritage NE rules is suggested but not mandatory, that would over rule nhra regulation as that is a race series/organization with their own rules even though they race at nhra sanctioned tracks.  i would imagine though at a non-series type race.. just say TNT or bracket racing then it would default to nhra rules.

The NHRA Heritage rules are an addendum to the regular rule book. The default is to the NHRA rule book in everything apart from classing.

Roo
Yeah, I am from the south--any further south and I would have been a bloody penguin.

Offline tcoupekyle

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Re: Fire system
« Reply #8 on: October 11, 2017, 12:28:31 PM »
Thank y'all.

Offline hotrodpete

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Re: Fire system
« Reply #9 on: March 01, 2019, 05:03:02 AM »
I found this while searching for fire bottle cable info. Does everyone else actually run the cable inside of a frame tube or through the uprite holes and attach above the lower frame rail?
 The only metal cased cables I have seen are large and have push only activation. I believe Roo was  setting this up to pull with a lever.  The grey cables are all I see used.
Any help is appreciated, especially pictures.

dreracecar

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Re: Fire system
« Reply #10 on: March 01, 2019, 07:50:30 AM »
Under the "grey" covering is a flexable steel casing.  Funnycars require that the brake lines to the front be protected where it passes the clutch/motor combination so it is routed thru the lower frame rail and since there is a hole already there, so goes in the FB activation cable for convenience.  Dragsters don't normally run cables/wires thru the lower rail because that where most of them run the puke lines into  for the tank at the rear of the car, Funnys/Altereds its the top rail for the breathers. As a rule I don't like running stuff thru the dragster rails in front of the engine, even with a patch/doubler, it weakens the frame, funnys are stiff and cane get away with it. Also you have to remember to remove contents if any welding must be done in the area. On Funny I worked on had the FB lines inside the upper frame rail, which was kind of trick, until one of the line nuts came loose and it became major surgery to open the area up, put the nut back on and patch it-- luckly it was an older chassis, if it was new, I'm sure the owner would be ticked off at the builder.
 Threaded tube above the cable tunnels is for the FB lines. easier to plumb the lines then to snake tubing thru the tunnles

Offline hotrodpete

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Re: Fire system
« Reply #11 on: March 01, 2019, 09:55:41 AM »
Thanks Bruce,is placement of a doubler specified or put it in the most convenient location for easy routing?
It is an altered so the bottom rail works well.

dreracecar

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Re: Fire system
« Reply #12 on: March 01, 2019, 10:30:49 AM »
Personally, I like welding a short tube to the bisecting uprite nearest the entrance/exit and bore/drill a hole and come out of there, that way the lower tube is not comprimized
« Last Edit: March 01, 2019, 10:34:31 AM by dreracecar »

Offline wideopen231

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Re: Fire system
« Reply #13 on: March 01, 2019, 01:46:16 PM »
Not being smart butt. Doesn't that up right need to be fully welded before adding tubes at intersecting point?
Relecting obama is like shooting right foot because it did not hurt enough when you shot left foot

dreracecar

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Re: Fire system
« Reply #14 on: March 01, 2019, 01:53:35 PM »
H-E- double hockey sticks NO!!!  in aircraft lingo--- it forms a "cluster"