Author Topic: Time for some changes  (Read 707 times)

Offline masracingtd1167

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Time for some changes
« on: December 01, 2018, 08:20:56 AM »
If I am going to make this change over to small percentage work I need to make some changes to my motor ! I am replacing my pistons so I might as well get the right parts ! I had 14.5 compression and my plan is to run about 30 percent so I am thinking about 12.5 ? I used .043 top and second rings with a total seal gapless top ring ! I also had gas ported pistons ! Bad idea ? Never had a bad plug reading but I did lift a ring land on one piston ! i put athicker head gasket on it and I think that may have led to the ring land lifting  my total deck was .072 ! I will go back to the .041 gasket !I am crossing the finish line at 9600 rpm so I think a gear change will help too ! Any help or thoughts would be greatly appreciated ! Thanks Bill

Offline Curly1

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Re: Time for some changes
« Reply #1 on: December 01, 2018, 09:28:13 AM »
I do not know much about this but on one of my motors it had 13.5 compression and I believe it would work on 20%. On my 14.6 compression motor I was having trouble at 4 or 5%. Now those motors were not exactly the same and cam, temperature, timing and other stuff comes into play but it did prove to me that if you are going to run any Nitro drop the compression some.  Now you need some compression to make your cam work so I do not know how much is too much. Also get good hygrometers to measure it exactly as even 1% makes a difference. 

Offline Spud Miller

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Re: Time for some changes
« Reply #2 on: December 01, 2018, 11:08:11 AM »
If I am going to make this change over to small percentage work I need to make some changes to my motor ! I am replacing my pistons so I might as well get the right parts ! I had 14.5 compression and my plan is to run about 30 percent so I am thinking about 12.5 ? I used .043 top and second rings with a total seal gapless top ring ! I also had gas ported pistons ! Bad idea ? Never had a bad plug reading but I did lift a ring land on one piston ! i put athicker head gasket on it and I think that may have led to the ring land lifting  my total deck was .072 ! I will go back to the .041 gasket !I am crossing the finish line at 9600 rpm so I think a gear change will help too ! Any help or thoughts would be greatly appreciated ! Thanks Bill

Yes, I think 12.5 should be ok for 30%. I like the gear change idea too...no need to spin it so tight if you can make the power down low.

 Spud


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Offline masracingtd1167

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Re: Time for some changes
« Reply #3 on: December 02, 2018, 08:52:40 AM »
Thank you for the reply's Spud and Curly ! I don't want to drop the compression two low like Curly said and make a turd out of it ! What are your thoughts on what to use for a ring Package ? I was using a total seal gapless top ring and a napier second ring both .043 and the gas ports which I think was a bad thing for Nitro !

Offline Spud Miller

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Re: Time for some changes
« Reply #4 on: December 02, 2018, 10:42:23 AM »

 I don't have any experience with gas ports, but I don't think they're a good thing for use with nitro.  I've heard that running a gapless top ring isn't good with that either. Something about fuel getting trapped between the rings and causing flutter. That's probably at high percentages and volumes however.

 At 30%, I think most of the rules for methanol still apply but I would call and talk to the ring experts.

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Offline wideopen231

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Re: Time for some changes
« Reply #5 on: December 02, 2018, 01:11:39 PM »
Gas ports just seem bad idea with nitro. As for gapless and ring flutter I think that's more issue if 2nd ring is gapless. I have box full of rings from TF/FC deal that have gapless rings in them and was strong running car at the time. Not sure about sbc gasket choices. I know with my Hemi I can go from 12.5 to almsot 14:1 with gaskets.Then I have from .030 to .090 gaskets and if wanted have them available in .001 increments,just not budget or need.  I am going with bigger bore little later and figure to get pistons for 14:1 with .030 gaskets and adjust as need. Would think there would be some selection in SBC gasket that allow similar changes. Hey its just snagging intake and heads for swap.

On plus side if I remember correctly Nitro notes stated that until above 30 or 35% you are not really adding fuel volume which should help with ring deal. I would build towards ntro combo and call little bit of power loss with straight alky a wash. Kind of build for max and let live at lesser.
Relecting obama is like shooting right foot because it did not hurt enough when you shot left foot

Offline msundstrom

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Re: Time for some changes
« Reply #6 on: December 03, 2018, 10:13:44 AM »
I ran lateral gas ports in my NA BBC on 45% last year. I had ring seal issues before using a TNT Total Seal ring, did cylinder prep differently and added the gas ports still used TNT ring. I had to pull 3 degrees timing, pull 3% nitro to 42% and lean it 1 step to slow the car down to 7.50s. I have not seen any negative issues with the gas ports to this point (30 passes), the jury is still out though. I think cylinder finish is very important and different with nitro vs. methanol.
Mark S

Offline masracingtd1167

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Re: Time for some changes
« Reply #7 on: December 16, 2018, 05:03:08 AM »
I ran lateral gas ports in my NA BBC on 45% last year. I had ring seal issues before using a TNT Total Seal ring, did cylinder prep differently and added the gas ports still used TNT ring. I had to pull 3 degrees timing, pull 3% nitro to 42% and lean it 1 step to slow the car down to 7.50s. I have not seen any negative issues with the gas ports to this point (30 passes), the jury is still out though. I think cylinder finish is very important and different with nitro vs. methanol.
Mark S
    I was just reading your post and you talked about cylinder wall finish ! Could you give a little more information and what do you use for an oil ring ? 

Offline wideopen231

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Re: Time for some changes
« Reply #8 on: December 16, 2018, 05:35:06 AM »
I ran lateral gas ports in my NA BBC on 45% last year. I had ring seal issues before using a TNT Total Seal ring, did cylinder prep differently and added the gas ports still used TNT ring. I had to pull 3 degrees timing, pull 3% nitro to 42% and lean it 1 step to slow the car down to 7.50s. I have not seen any negative issues with the gas ports to this point (30 passes), the jury is still out though. I think cylinder finish is very important and different with nitro vs. methanol.
Mark S
    I was just reading your post and you talked about cylinder wall finish ! Could you give a little more information and what do you use for an oil ring ?
What did you do different?
Relecting obama is like shooting right foot because it did not hurt enough when you shot left foot

Offline msundstrom

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Re: Time for some changes
« Reply #9 on: December 17, 2018, 09:23:02 PM »
Do you want the short answer or the long answer?

Offline JrFuel Hayden

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Re: Time for some changes
« Reply #10 on: December 17, 2018, 10:47:04 PM »
Matt Hadford at Total Seal told us to have our machine shop that would be doing the honing call them to get the right hone program, because it's different when we are burning alky, rather than gas.
So I would call your ring guy about low %'s of nitro.
Back in the day , 60's-70's my real nitro JrFueler we ran 10.75-11-1 pistons on 98% nitro in a all iron 301 ci SBC. For a while we ran a dykes SS top ring, as suggested by our piston guy. We had a real hard time getting the ring to seal, but they said "it's the hot set-up', so we would take all apart after each week-end, and change the hone angle, clean it all up and run it again, after trying that program about 6-8 times we finally gave up and went back to a moly ring. I figured the SS was working good on gas, not so on nitro.
I've heard the top fast Heritage A/f guys are running around 12-1 on 90+ nitro, and they run in the 5's at 230+mph
Good Luck,
Jon
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Offline masracingtd1167

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Re: Time for some changes
« Reply #11 on: December 18, 2018, 02:37:48 AM »
Do you want the short answer or the long answer?
  I have time give me the long one !

Offline wideopen231

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Re: Time for some changes
« Reply #12 on: December 18, 2018, 12:50:23 PM »
If like write long version and I am good with it.Hate reading unless its engine related,then I could read war and peace if it was about building power.
Relecting obama is like shooting right foot because it did not hurt enough when you shot left foot

Offline msundstrom

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Re: Time for some changes
« Reply #13 on: December 18, 2018, 02:15:52 PM »
When looking for information on the top secret/dirty word "nitro" anything, you don't find much outside of Spuds Nitro Notes which is an awesome read and thank Spud for putting Facts out there instead of voodoo fear. Spud has had good results but believe he has access to a knowledgeable machinist. In hind sight I should have talked with his machinist. Guess he is still alive so I guess they don't kill you for divulging the secrets. I know enough to be dangerous but will give you what I know and have learned and don't want to contribute to the voodoo so use this with caution.  Running even smaller %'s I noticed cylinder wear and an etching (burnishing) at the top of the cylinders and ring seal falling off, had no problems prior using methanol and  a zero gap Total Seal Top ring. Lots of "can't use a zero gap second ring with nitro" stuff out there but everything usually was referring to  high %'s , blown & Hemi. Although there were some that had success using gapless second.?? Most guys were using a Dykes top ring. The ring flutter issue makes sense to me but I'm NA and low %? So went away from the zero gap to the TNT ring and more % and brought piston clearance to .010" from .007". Rings went away quickly and the etching was very bad. The etching area is in the upper 1.5" of the bore and the crosshatch is gone. The lost crosshatch I knew was lack of lubrication but why? The light came on when a gentleman asked me the question, "what is nitromethane used for"?? A Solvent: which changed my thinking. So the oil is being washed off from the nitro, ok but how to fix it.  I had previously had the cylinders prepped as per ring instructions (320 grit stone). As Jon says call the ring manufacturer! The crosshatch roughness ( Ra, Rz, Rpk, Rk, and Rvk , go to any of the ring sites and they explain the differences) becomes the important numbers rather than the stone grit. Not all machine shops have the tool to determine those values other than the Ra value. I did not have convenient access to a machine shop with this ability or any knowledge of nitromethane living here at the edge of the earth so I have improvised and did it myself. With help from Total Seal they suggested using a 220 grit stone and plateau hone. I finally ended up using a 180 grit stone and 10 reverse passes with a plateau hone.  I am using a standard tension oil ring. I have not had a loss of ring seal nor oil on the plugs to this point. Hoping to get 2 seasons as my indicator of success for me. There are a lot of variables with this, a big one is the block you are using. I'm using a Mark IV block which is very soft and added to my problem; a Dart, Merlin, Brodix, etc are different animals. Again have you or your machinist talk to the ring manufacturer & ask questions. I did talk to J&E about using a moly ring for nitro and he quickly said it would not work but could not give me details(voodoo??). I did read that Top Fuel used top and second rings both moly but said they delaminated quickly( believe in a pass) but apples to oranges. The reason why I used the TNT ring was no one else made a 4.350" x 1/16" ring other than J&E which was moly. 
Thanks
Mark

Offline masracingtd1167

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Re: Time for some changes
« Reply #14 on: December 21, 2018, 07:13:22 AM »
Mark That is why I asked that question ! I am having a similar problem with mine and have thought that the finish on the cylinder wall was too fine of a finish ! I have been using a gapless top ring in mine and it has worked well up untill i started running a small amount of nitro ! I am having a new set of pistons made and sent two of the old ones to Bill Miller to be copied ! I am hoping that he can give me a better idea of which ring pack to use ! Mark thank you for your help !