girdle vs 4 bolt caps on iron hemi block

[noslin]

dealing with iron block on say 331, 354, 392 hemi block.  when do you go to 4 bolt caps or what is better the caps or girdle.   what hp run the girdles to or can you do both?   would be blown, prob 354 but looking for 392... shooting for 7.0 pro.   so 1000, 1100 hp guessing .  i dont know anything about this so looking for insight.

ty
dean

[Frontenginedragsters]

Dean:
 The old "Whale" engine was always the foundation of blown fuel racing.
I have a 354 engine block at my shop and there is not a lot of material outside of the main bolt area to add bolts.
I think the girdle is the way to go but lets see what some of the older guys say.
Lots of west coast whale engine guys and years of experience from this group.
I will look into this more and post additional info.

Matt

[dreracecar]

There is a company that is making a new 392 block. Added material for the 4 bolt caps, added material on the decks and cylinder walls, all weak spots on a 60 year old block intended for racing. I haven't seen a side bolt girdle that was made for a iron block, only for the Donovan alu block

[Paul New]

I had 3 392's and wanted to build an open alky combe to run 6.90-7.0's and Gene Adams told me then lock will not last. He informed me that injected nitro would last at those E.T's

[coupemerc]

A buddy of mine is building a dual engine FED with blown alcohol 392s. His engines have 2 bolt mains with girdles.

[noslin]

There is a company that is making a new 392 block. Added material for the 4 bolt caps, added material on the decks and cylinder walls, all weak spots on a 60 year old block intended for racing. I haven't seen a side bolt girdle that was made for a iron block, only for the Donovan alu block

BBM is supposed to be making one, i found an online article about it but BBM website has no information on it. further, Lavoie and Adams was supposed to be making one years ago too. 

just as messing with the aircooled vw's.  you could prob put 500-550 hp to stock case for about a year if lucky till it started to fatigue. with big hp in vw you need to get the aftermarket case... about 2500-3500 depending on which one you got. i get the deal stock block can only handle so much... been there just not in this world. 

dean

[dreracecar]

Forget about the L&A block, current NHRA big show cars will be nostalgic before that comes into play

[LZ]

Hello Dean:
Say I was running through this on my hemi build.
Disclaimer..... just my opinion yours may differ.
 
Having worked with Matt on putting new caps on old blocks, seeing some puked out whale blocks, doing some measuring , having the privilege of talking to some experienced hemi racers, and dealing with my anal jack hole mind.
Was not looking at leaning on it as hard as you plan.
Came to conclusion to build cap - girdle deal. Why?? 
- There is not a lot of meat in the block web for the outboard fasteners .
- feel the outboard added fastener really weakens the block web. Personally witness a block that was windowed that was filled and had added aftermarket caps. Really was an eye opener. Have photos can send ya when I get home if you want.
- in my mind you can't do enough to beef up bottom end. Stop the cap walk, support the crank, have margin to hold against any detonation. Try to keep those main bearings in good shape. Ba da be ba da ba.
- my opinion is the girdle is a fantastic way to help that stock bottom but ain't enough for what you plan.

Back to what I had planed if it's of any help.
Build all the caps out of 7075 all the way across. The back one will require some extra work due to seal. I was not going to have to worry about the pump mount as was going to run external. Fab up side supports to lock caps. Wasn't definite yet to either pin skirt - caps or dado skirt pcs. Use stock pan bolt tapped holes. Create plane for a pan.
Fab up a 417 like pan. The size worked good and you could get pan gaskets easy.

Love old hemi,s, but you pay a price $ (time) to run this old stuff and is very commendable. You are really leaning on this.
Just saying and wish you well bruddah 
Luke

[dreracecar]

And after all that work you are still dealing with a 60yr old block. If you are lucky to have a machine shop at your personal disposal, fine, if not and have to pay for all that plus normal block prep, you are about $2 shy of what a premium used Donovan goes for

[LZ]

And after all that work you are still dealing with a 60yr old block. If you are lucky to have a machine shop at your personal disposal, fine, if not and have to pay for all that plus normal block prep, you are about $2 shy of what a premium used Donovan goes for

Absolutely Bruce
I could justify it as I was building it for myself ,don't know what Deans situation is. It's not really a ton of work so much as measuring and set up.
He wants to use a vintage hemi and as such of course it will be more work. As mentioned no aftermarket hemi block available.
I admire people for the work and resourcefulness to make these old combinations go down the track. Were not the old days were a team would just go to the junkyard and pick up another 392. As such .
Dean did you ever see the Ross racing engines dragster? They run an Oldsmobile.  He was running the old whatever olds ( not up on olds so pardon me) did a bucnch of work to get the old block to live.  Last I heard is that he ended up machining a new billet block under I think same old cylinder heads.
Google rosss racing engines I think in Ohio . 
I'm sorry for any long winded responses Dean. I was going down this road and it hit me especially when you brought this up. As had much thought into this. 
Luke

[noslin]

All replies are very welcomed.   looking at the 'whale' to just get the FED running for end of this year and next year.  i have aspirations  to run 7.0 but whatever it runs it runs (ne1, ne2,...) we dont expect to go out and set the world on fire and obviously we all know there is a learning curve, we just want to get out there and have fun.   nevertheless, ill use an aftermarket block on the next motor.  for us the 'whale' is just way to get in the game a little without huge expense.

i think the initial plan was to get one. 331, 354, 392 (with 392 block being optimal for tall deck), make necessary upgrades to the combo (rods, pistons, girdle/caps, etc) and get the car running ..   then as things come along for upgrades such as a block (i think you can use donovan 417 block ??   it will all bolt over? ) and then just progress from there.. heads, rockers, etc.

i was just curious as to if you would caps or girdle first or both?

i do not know much about the history or others combos in the nostalgia world but reading and learning.

ty
dean

[sknopp]

Dean,

For what you are wanting to do you can modify your existing caps.  Take the no. 1, 2, 3, and 4 caps and mill them flat across the tops (mill of the cast radius that is there).  Then get some flat stock (I used 4140) 1" to 1-1/4" thick and drill them to mount on top of the caps.  Put good studs in the block and use good nuts.  I ran this setup with a filled block on 25% nitro with no issues.  You will need to modify your oil pan. 

I have seen some fabricated girdles pop up on e-bay, but have never had one. 

Steve K. 

[dreracecar]

Its not about "setting the world on fire" as soo many people say in the begining, its about throwing good money after bad, There are not as many blocks in junkyards as there once was, and most certainly not for $25. The cost involved in prepping a block like you want is a gamble, others have had great success and lasted, and others I have dealt with went halfway thru prep before the problems appear, along with those that made it through only to have something stupid happen and kill the whole deal. The BBM 392 block has addressed a lot of these issues, but hang a rod out the side will scrap anybodys iron block new or old.
this was a first fire-up

[dusterdave173]

Band Aids all of it so...keep power levels reasonable--use aluminum rods--they act like dead blow hammers and #1 is the tune up--we build and race lots of Mopar big blocks--since Mopar is not producing the aftermarket blocks anymore we are forced to use  $50 junk yard block--the KEY is the tune up--NO detonation--tune it right and they have a prayer--miss it and it will crack sooner not later
Alum rod--good tune--good caps and studs--and just know it will not make it as long as you hope or give you your moneys worth
There are maybe hundreds of guys that can help based on experience with these but a stock block is and always has been a crapshoot